oh, I think I'm going to have to write

[bedlamsbard]

Ahahahaha, realpestilence, guess what I'm reading about now in my theatre book:

Befitting their patron deity, all the Dionysian festivals involved drinking enormous quantities of wine. AT the Anthesteria, each participating man, woman, and child began the festivities by tossing down a two-liter jug at a single sitting. Wine drinking continued throughout the three days of this festival, which also included bull sacrifices and dismemberments, the consuming of hallucinogenic mushrooms, and the ecstatic dithyrambic dance-chants, led by a group of fifty goatskin-clan, phallos-bearing priests. The dithyramb concluded with a sacred marriage ritual in which drunken women danced around the phallos, adorned with a bearded mask, after which the tribal queen was "given" to "Dionysus." Although we don't know exactly how this gift was delivered, historians believe that real sexual intercourse took place, accompanied by cheers from the rhapsodic throng.

I feel so inspired.

Comments

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

...oh, man, if the bond kicks in for the first time while Peter's being threatened by the conspirators, then Edmund really may kill him, because talk about bad timing.

Hmm. I was thinking they'd have the fight pretty soon afterwards, but there's also the fun possibility of the two of them avoiding each other for a few days -- only Edmund can't, because he has this plot he can't delay, and...awkwardness.

I talked about the amnesia, earlier, screwing with Peter's reaction to the earth-bond? That, too. And they were more or less not as traumatized during the last few years of their reign, when Narnia had started to settle into the flow of things (internationally speaking) and recovered and everything was sunshine and roses. Then England.

OH MY GOD.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

There'd *have* to be some awkwardness for a bit, with unexpected pitfalls in their conversation for a long time after (especially since you say they wouldn't talk it out). They're brothers and they had *sex*, in a wild, public, Dionysian ceremony that they're beginning to realize *wasn't* just symbolic, feeling like they've been sandbagged...and if the "knowing where Peter is" and "Narnia screams at Edmund when Peter's in danger" aspects appear without any warning during the faked coup attempt, it would not be a good thing! I can see it working either way, with a few dry runs first, or BAM! Crap, what did we get into?! *muses*


Oh, YES. You know *Susan*, at least, has to be thinking, shit, WHAT IF I'M PREGNANT?!! It *was* a fertility ritual, to help Narnia re-adjust herself season/land-production-wise...I wonder how many babies are born after the ceremony, historically? It might be something the Narnians look forward to, you know, as a way to boost the population with "good luck" children. Huh. But I don't think she'd actually *be* pregnant, or carry it to term if she was...imagine the political fallout from having an illegitimate half-Minotaur child being the High King's heir.

Is that alarming you or enticing you? *rotfl*


Somehow, I can imagine Lucy happily rolling around with any number of folks and having fun. She's probably the only one of the four who enjoyed herself the way the ritual *should* be enjoyed, ideally (except for the sacrificed person *coughs*). Oddly enough, I don't think *she'd* mind having a Minotaur's baby, especially; she'd be more philosophical about it being *her* child, too, I'd think. Huh, some more.

Edmund volunteering in part to help assure there'd be no inconvenient incestuous heirs running around to screw up the succession and then-hey, here's a half-breed one, instead, and the daddy was one of the bad guys...*facepalms*


*pictures a teeny tiny blanket-swaddled minotaur baby being breastfed by a stunned, exhausted Queen Susan the Gentle while her siblings bicker in the background*

I'm not trying to plant ideas, don't be alarmed, it's just fun to think about. *laughs*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Oh, lord, yes. Awkwardness forever, probably, or at least for years. I'm looking at their bickering in "Old Timber" in new light, now. It especially doesn't help that Narnia takes Edmund's permission that one time as tacit permission for the rest of his life, which ends...uh, badly. (No, seriously, the question is: was there Peter/Edmund/Narnia at any point in time during PC, because after she got over her initial sulking, it's been thirteen hundred years and the land is damaged. Let's get some High King lovin' here!)

(I sort of want to write the scene in "Be Like Water" that's basically Peter/Narnia(/Edmund) being overheard by Caspian and/or Peta. And Peta says, "I never thought I would have a moment where I thought I got off lucky, but apparently so." Followed by a stab of sharp hurt, because after all, she married Peter, but then again...)

Wait, where were we? Oh, yes. If the conspirators are on as tight a schedule as I suspect, I don't think they'll get a chance for a dry run. They're going to get thrown straight into it. And then they'll have even more things to yell about, besides Edmund being horrified at the fact that Peter really thought he'd betray him.

Well, the only one of my Pevensies to ever have kids was Edmund, and he only had the one, and she got herself murdered. I mean, besides Peta, obviously. So I am strangely zen.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Awkwardness for a few years, until they settle down into it, just like Peter does with Narnia. They *can't* have been on edge all the time, or they'd not be as effective a team as they were-and in PC, Edmund obviously supports Peter and Peter finally tries to express his appreciation, however awkwardly.

Oh, yes, I'd think there'd be some Peter/Edmund/Narnia goin' on, all right! But...keep in mind how comfortable and affectionate that one piece was, where Edmund came to spend the night with Peter because he was annoyed with Caspian, and he cuddles up all drunk and grumpy, with Peter taking care of him.


Hmm, yes, it probably *would* be best for the faked betrayal to happen right away, then...and all that stuff I mentioned in our other conversation about Edmund getting fed up with being suspected (the Narnia/Witch possession thread) is what I meant for the "horrified at the fact that Peter really thought he'd betray him" part. I'd be all "what does it fuckin' TAKE to prove myself to you people?!!" and raging.


No kids, I know. But still. Kinda cute. *laughs*


I'm going to have to go back and re-read some stuff. I never did get around to commenting on 'In Constellated Wars', and I meant to.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

They get used to it -- they have to. Peter probably gets used to it quicker than Edmund does, but then again, all he has is Narnia in his head, and he's already had her there for years -- not to this level of intensity, just that constant low-level hum that he learned to tune out in the first year, but she's still been there for so long that having her more there is probably easier to settle into after the initial panic settles down. But then again, Peter has her there all the time. Edmund never knows when Narnia is going to make herself known, especially since she tends to do so in times of great stress. (And he must get pretty good at letting her know, "Yes, Peter is down a well, now shut up and let me go rescue him." But Peter is down a well (or the equivalent) more often than he's getting himself in enough danger that Narnia goes, "Must have him. RIGHT NOW," although I think they basically got to the point where Edmund was less bitter and more taking it in stride. So to speak.)

After fifteen years, I think they're used to each other. And it's -- not such a big deal anymore. Narnia may have even started telling Edmund before she takes him over. *rolls eyes* Fifteen years on campaign together, even with assorted troubles inbetween? Just sharing a bed is nothing.

Now, once Narnia stops sulking, then we may be getting somewhere. Or Peter and Edmund will, anyway...

Oh, god yes. And then Peter yelling back about how it looks, and Edmund shouting that it shouldn't matter, not after what he just did for Peter -- and then Peter goes white (again, Edmund realizes in the corner of his mind that will be cool and calm on Judgment Day; it's the same expression on his face that he had before he stormed off to the stables) and bites out through clenched teeth that it wasn't for him, damn it. "Fuck you," Edmund says, "fuck you very much, you officious bastard, it's not Narnia or nothing for the rest of us trying to be normal --" Peter goes very still. "Then you'll be here a damn long time," he says finally, the words precise. "And you already did that." Edmund hits him before he's finishing speaking. Peter turns his head to take the blow, but doesn't flinch otherwise. He licks a drop of blood away as it wells up from the corner of his mouth.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Peter at least gets the respect, awe, and even reverence of the people for *being* High King and taking on what he has; he also gets Narnia's love and desire for him. Edmund is pretty much just a tool for their use. He may have been willing to do it to help, but it's still going to hurt after he has that shoved in his face often enough-and suspected, etc.

I think it was very much for *Peter*, not necessarily Narnia, that Edmund volunteered. Neither of them knew exactly what they were getting into, but he stepped forward to spare their sisters, to prevent inconvenient heirs, to help Peter (who was being driven wild by Narnia's desires and whatnot in dreams)...I don't know about the wanting to be "normal", so much (it sounds like something from the SPN fandom, they harp on that a lot *laughs*.)

I like the "fuck you very much, you officious bastard, it's not Narnia or nothing for the rest of us" and Peter's "You already did that". So angry and laying the ground for Issues they'd have to work around and then resolve.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Right, exactly. And I'm pretty sure that besides Peter, none of the others ever really had a concept of Narnia as person, either. I mean -- Narnia is a country. A country. How can she possibly be sentient, or have her own will and desire, or affect other people? They don't have her in their heads; there's no way for them to know. And then Edmund does get her in his head...after the fact. Poor bastard.

The girls, though, the girls are never going to know because all they see is the reflection of Narnia on Peter and Edmund. In theory they know she's real, in actuality -- well, if you're not the one getting stricken by headaches and possessed by your brother's wife the talking country, then it's a little hard to believe.

(Hell, a desire to prove to Peter he can be trusted is probalby some of the underlying sentiment behind Edmund's stepping forward. I don't think he was thinking about it consciously, but it was certainly there.)

Right, "normal" might be pushing it, because they're never going to be normal. But a desire to be as normal as they can be, under the circumstances, well...I don't blame Edmund for wanting that, and sometimes he looks at the girls and wishes -- but then he'd be opening up either Lucy or Susan to what he's going through, and as enlightened as the Narnians are, he's still their brother, and he wouldn't want to put them through waht he goes through.

Okay, who else thinks that Lucy went, "Oh, I'll do it," and Peter went, "I WILL SHOOT MYSELF FIRST." "Oh, thanks," Lucy snapped.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

I think this is a believable vehicle for setting up the eventual fracture of them as a family. Susan, who's between the boys in age & who used to be Peter's main assistant, gets to see up close the damage that they're sustaining from this. She wants no part of it, no more loss of "self"; by the time they get it under as much control as they're able to, she's already distantced herself. Then they come back in PC and she's all brusque and annoyed with them and protective of Caspian, to some degree, because she knows what's coming for him, if they succeed. Lucy, now-I think she would offer and be vehemently turned down, yes. And afterwards be very, very grateful that she was, because she's the most joyful and light-hearted of them all, and the damage it would have done to her would have been considerable-it could have destroyed her relationship with Peter. No more scenes of comfort like in PC, when Peter talked to her in the How after the failed summoning. Seeing how the guys are so screwed up might drive her even more towards Aslan, too. Her relationship is more with the *people* of Narnia and Aslan, never mind the country. *thoughtful*

I wonder what Caspian would think of this, seeing it in PC, when he has no understanding of them as people, much less of Narnia's sentience or history, etc; and then going back to the Golden Age and seeing it then, and how it works for them, but at a cost. *muses*

(And then he flees! *laughs*)


Hmm. If Peter and Edmund won't talk to each other about the situation, maybe they'd talk to Lucy? Or Edmund might talk to her. Peter would probably not confide in anyone, and he'd be more touchy and guilty about it as time went by-because *yes* the boys want to protect their sisters...they're wartime 1940s British males transplanted to medievelesque Narnia royalty...of course they do. But Edmund is *also* Peter's little brother-and if Edmund looks up to him and wants his approval, then Peter wants to take care of *him*, too. It might usually be expressed more like a general with his troops, hearty backslap and sending him off to be medicated and fed, but it's better than thinking about what got done to Edmund on his behalf.

And then there's the possibility of the captured/tortured-to-find-out-where-Peter-is scene, with Breakneck charging to the rescue and killing anything in his path. *Of course* he'd come, even if he *was* angry with Edmund...right after their fight? *muses*

Lots of possibilities here. *smiles*

[franceica.livejournal.com]

I am so sorry to intrude, but I just wanted to comment that it's totally possible about Susan here. It absolutely makes sense.

Though talking about Susan in the movie, and she's all protective of Caspian in PC, there's one thing I've been wanting to say for a long time. The movies always gave me the feeling that she's not as close to Peter as Edmund and Lucy were. Edmund was all supportive towards Peter, both in LWW (after he's rescued) and PC, no matter whether the two of them were arguing or not; Lucy turns to Peter for protection and comforts Peter in return. And Peter gave me the sort of feeling that he's so much more familiar with Edmund (and Lucy, in a way) than he's with Susan. He got Edmund to fight Trumpkin without a word, and they know each other enough to know what they are going to do (though interestingly, in the book they have discussed it before they do it). I don't know if it is me imagining things or I simply remember the facts wrongly, but that's really the impression I got.

And not to mention Susan almost always hold Peter accountable whenever something goes wrong, so I think she's going to hold Peter accountable for the whole sentient country episode, too, to think that what Edmund actually went through! I think she'd be furious about Peter. That might even contribute to her drifting apart, too.

*facepalm*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I loved the Trumpkin fight scene, because oh my God, Peter is such a king, and it's so much more elegant in the movie than it is in the books, where he and Edmund debate the point.

I think Susan and Peter might have been closer before the year-long gap between LWW and PC, because they both reacted to it in such completely different ways. Susan adjusted, Peter...didn't. Because there's that moment at the beginning of PC where they meet each other's eyes, and Susan just sighs, and they were close at some point, close enough to have that wordless connection that's a lot more strained in PC than Peter and Edmund's. But they wouldn't have seen as much of each other before PC as Peter and Edmund did. (I think?) And they would have grown apart.

I think it would certainly explain any bitterness about Narnia, once it became clear that Peter wasn't making all this stuff up. Which Susan's not going to be thinking of consciously, but unconsciously...she's a big sister too.

[franceica.livejournal.com]

I loved the Trumpkin fight scene, because oh my God, Peter is such a king, and it's so much more elegant in the movie than it is in the books, where he and Edmund debate the point.

Oh god, I do love that to bits and pieces, too! And it is subtle and elegant and I am exploding with love for that. The scene to me shows even when there were things pent up inside between Peter and Edmund, they could still have such tacit understanding with each other. *cough* Though of course, I admit I am wearing a biased glass.

I think Susan and Peter might have been closer before the year-long gap between LWW and PC

You are right. They were probably close at one point, before they got back to England, probably. And maybe because Susan's older, she wouldn't depend on Peter that much like Lucy did, and then she didn't have the battle-forged connection with Peter like Edmund did, hence the affection was not easily shown, and that's one of the reasons which gave me the impression that she's not so close to Peter as the other two were.

And yes, there would be bitterness about Narnia, and maybe what you said, the urge to be as normal as possible, might be another driving force for her to "forget" Narnia? It was so abnormal and traumatic and she just can't deal with it. If it is all fake, it might feel better for her, that those things didn't really happen.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

And I will not start bursting with love for PC again, although oh my God, so we will leave it at that.

And Susan would most likely have distanced herself from all of her siblings, since they all "believe." (Or remember, as the case may be.) And -- in my 'verse, at least -- she doesn't have the crystal clear high def memory of Narnia that Peter does, but she didn't luck out (her sentiment) and get the blurred impressions that Lucy and Edmund did, either. She remembers, but not well -- but not badly enough she can quite convince herself it was a dream, either.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

There were subtle signs in the movie of Susan pulling away, from her disapproval of Peter, support of Caspian, not wanting to believe Aslan was there (which they downplayed), and imo, her *not exchanging one word with Edmund in the whole movie*. (I saw it four times and didn't see those two talk at all!) Even her sitting alone, waiting for the train, not wanting to be around others much, points up her isolation.

She did seem to argue against him in every incidence, and only supported him the one time she shouldn't have (opening the gate). I didn't really feel the love, there, until the duel when she awkwardly hugged him after realizing Peter could DIE, they all could...


Peter's the eldest, so of course he's gonna get the blame if something goes wrong, whether it makes sense or is fair or not, more's the pity.

[franceica.livejournal.com]

her *not exchanging one word with Edmund in the whole movie*

Really? Oh my god, I didn't notice that! And I watch it twice. But thinking back, I kind of couldn't remember much about those two interacting. I can remember lots between Edmund and Peter, even though Edmund didn't even have that much screen time, but there were plenty of interaction between them, by gesture or words or looks is another matter; Lucy and Edmund, well, Edmund supported Lucy on the issue of seeing Aslan, and then there was a feel that he's protective of her (during the wild bear scene?); Susan did interact with Lucy a fair bit, possibly because they were both girls? And then Susan and Peter, although there is interaction, it wasn't too affectionate or supportive though; and then Peter is simply all protective about Lucy. I think it did give a sort of isolated feeling about Susan, when compare to the other three.

Yes, she did that only when Peter might die, *rolls eyes* Susan didn't show her affection to Peter much, possibly because she's older?

True, that comes with the job, eldest brother and all. But knowing this couldn't stop me from sometimes feeling indignant, *cough cough*

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Everyone gets so excited about how Susan was portrayed in the movie that they forget her canon characterization was much more gentle and passive (half-fainting in the tree during the wolf attack while she had a bow and arrows in her hands during LWW is a prime example). She *was* a good archer and swimmer, but hated competition or making people feel bad; she was practical and nagged like a mom as Susan Pevensie and was a romantic, court lady type as Queen Susan. Very domestic and kind, though not good at the school-work, and I imagine she was good with managing people tactfully, given all those suitors that she had to turn away without offending them.

The Susan in PC was interesting, but she wasn't Queen Susan the Gentle, imo. *shrugs*


Lucy & Edmund were pretty true...Peter was different, much more aggressive about being "High King"; but it was a difference that worked *for* the story, not against it. His passion drove the movie-otherwise, it would all be riding or walking through the woods for hours and then a duel and hey, it's over. *laughs*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Right, and the girls are going to have the distance to see the damage, Susan especially so, since she's older and probably remembers England much better than Lucy does. Edmund can probably see it -- I think he's self-aware enough, and pays enough attention to Peter both before and afterwards (hell, Edmund probably pays attention to everything, in contrast to Peter, who notices stuff but doesn't process it unless it's important to him, and who knows what that is) but I can't think of any way he'd bring it up in casual conversation unless he's throwing it in Peter's face during an argument. Which doesn't really count as casual conversation. And Peter certainly won't notice.

Well, once Caspian realizes what's actually going on, he's going to flee for the hills. Although I'm not sure how he's going to figure out what's going on; so far is only up close and personal example is Peter slicing him open to see if he's really a king of Narnia. (One fears what might have happened if he hadn't been bonded to the land. Peter killing him, probably.)

I think Edmund would talk to Lucy. Peter would look a little blank and say, "What? Talk about what? I'm fine," and go off and hack something to bits.

It can't be immediately after their fight, because they won't have figured out that Edmund knows where Peter is, yet. And I don't think that's something generally well-known. Huh. Traitor in the palace. (Another one. *rolls eyes*)