a survey

[bedlamsbard]

Given Narnian resources, explosives knowledge, and a grudge, Peter and Edmund will:
a) introduce the concept of black powder to Narnia
b) raise holy hell
c) reconquer Narnia (for the THIRD TIME)
d) ALL OF THE ABOVE

ETA: I see y'all are opposed to the black powder notion. Tactical advantage. CANON, also, by the way; the Telmarines have fireworks, and I would be severely surprised if, three hundred years later, they had not managed to make those into weapons because that is what human beings do. And even if the Telmarine Narnians hadn't, the Calormenes most certainly would have unless they have some other resource that's going to take their place. Greek fire, yes; I don't remember if I ever explicitly stated it, but it was used in the Golden Age by Narnia and probably everyone else in the area, although they didn't call it Greek fire, obviously. And Greek fire is nastier than gunpowder.

And just for the record, the only way I'm going to have it in the story is if I decide they need to blow something up, which may or may not happen.

ETA2: Okay, y'all know what, I'm sick of talking about it. And I'd just like to point out that, one, nowhere did I actually say the words "guerilla war," and, two, China: gunpowder invented 850 AD, used in combat 919 AD, cannon invented 1126, firearms dated to 1290. (Source.) And talking about this is putting me in a bad mood, and now I am very tempted to introduce a plague for no good reason. I already burned half the forests in Narnia down; how much worse can their situation get?

Comments

[sevter.livejournal.com]

I'm opting for option b & c since introducing black powder makes my hair stand on ends. It's a good idea tactically but it also means that the Narnian warfare is gonna be a lot more destructive in the near future.

If there's no black powder, how were the ships able to engage in warfare in "In a Dry Month"? I know the Narnian side employs a whole bunch of tricks but how about the Masongnongese side? Do they just board the ships?

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Actually, to tell the truth, I'm shocked and surprised that sixteen hundred years down the line they're still using the same weapons and technology they had in the Golden Age. I would have expected either the Telmarines or the Calormenes to have black powder/gunpowder by this point. Huh. Could still give the Calormenes gunpowder. Must consider.

Er, anyway, what I was going to say is that the development of weapons technology is inevitable. Using it, if Peter and Edmund can make it, is a good tactical advantage, especially as badly outnumbered as they are. Also, then they can blow shit up. And theoretically they could control its use, if they're the only ones who make and they don't share the secret with anyone else, but -- the Telmarines definitely had fireworks in PC. I wouldn't necessarily say that they don't have the concept. Oh, look, it's research time!

Okay, I have to look this up, but Masongnong is sort of vaguely Chinese-ish; I refer to the naval history of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_history_of_China) and their badass Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_history_of_China#Tang_era). But basically -- arrows, rams, catapults, Greek fire (which obviously isn't called Greek fire; I've been loosely using the term "wildfire" and stealing from George R.R. Martin, as I am apparently prone to do), ballistas -- but the ultimate goal, of course, is boarding. Narnia had wildfire, archers, and a hell of a lot of luck.

[franceica.livejournal.com]

a) introduce the concept of black powder to Narnia

Makes me speechless. *stares*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

A tactical advantage would probably be handy at this point, yes?

...it's just a concept. I want Peter and Edmund to McGuyver it up.

[franceica.livejournal.com]

I know. It's tactically sound, and a great idea, too. But it just creeps me out. *stares again*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

The Calormenes probably have black powder too. And the Telmarines definitely do; fireworks in PC. *offers*

[franceica.livejournal.com]

Hmm, er, yeah, if you put it this way, it does seem very understandable now. *wonders* I guess what creeps me out is the massive explosion and that sort of things. But still, I really do think it's a good weapon. May even catch the Calormenes off-guard, too!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I just want to blow up a couple of walls, if that.

The argument? Is actually making me more rather than less inclined to introduce black powder.

[franceica.livejournal.com]

You know, I think as long as the set up is right, it wouldn't be a problem. And I have confidence in you to think of a good circumstance. *grins* Many ideas would sound ridiculous and could freak people out if we summarize them, but somehow when they are elaborated and put into the right settings, they don't seem to be ridiculous any more. So, if you think circumstances demand it, go right ahead! *whispers* Remember, I love your Narnian aircraft carrier so much!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*grins* Too bad the stars aren't aligned right for Peter to produce another one of those at the drop of a hat; he could really use one.

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

B & C!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

So I see you are also not on the black powder train.

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Yup. Black powder & Narnia don't come together in my mind. Black powder can stay in England. *nods*

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

black powder in Narnia is terrifying and makes me shudder - especially the idea of the Pevensies introducing it. Narnia is a pristine pre-industry country. Then again, your universe and characters have developed so differently than CS Lewis' that in a desperate situation like the one you've portrayed, it might be something the characters would be able to do. However, it does seem to give them too much power immediately. As Kingly and Queenly as they are, I can't picture the Pevensies not having difficulty with Narnia in its current state.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

All black powder is is a weapon. It's not a magic bullet; it's not going to solve all their problems and yes, it may very well create more. However, its use would be a tactical advantage. However, quantities would be severely limited, the Narnians are still hugely outnumbered, there are threats from internal and external foes, and just because they're kingly, queenly, honorable, and noble doesn't mean they aren't prepared to do whatever they have to in order to save their country.

And it is just a concept.

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

It just seems like a violent split from canon in what makes Narnia by nature a natural good place. But that doesn't spring from much more than opinion. I can definitely understand the Pevensies' determination to do right by their country... I'm interested to see which sacrifices they're willing to make and which ones they aren't.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

How is any other weapon any more unnatural than gunpowder? They're fighting a war. And it makes every kind of logical sense that the Calormenes have gunpowder too; two thousand years of a more or less stable conquering empire? Yeah, I'd think they'd have gunpowder by this point in time. And the Telmarines do have gunpowder; they have fireworks.

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

My bias springs from canon being childrens' fantasy written by an Englishman who lived during both World Wars. My first reaction is against gunpowder because it seems to me the universe the author created was one meant for the Pevensies to escape the evils of modern warfare that enable one man to kill ten in seconds. I'm not arguing with your logic of gunpowder being used in warfare, because you're right, it's incredibly likely that it would be since it's shown they have the technology. I'm just saying that having the Pevensies introduce it to this war (which is what I thought you were proposing? but if the Telmarines have it then the Narnians should already have it, so Peter and Edmund's explosives knowledge wouldn't really be new) seems very contrary to how Lewis intends their characters. But you're writing fanfiction so you have the liberty to pick and choose what canon you want to use. You asked for a reaction; I gave mine.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

And I understand that. I am also just arguing my point here. (In other words, uh, AU. I think Lewis would be rolling over in his grave at what I've done to Narnia and the Pevensies.)

[scarletts-awry.livejournal.com]

I have an unpopular opinion apparently, because I say D) ALL OF THE ABOVE.

It only makes sense, and I'm always in favor of blowing shit up.

(As is Mac, I believe.)

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

At the moment, I am inclined to cling to the unpopular opinion.

Now, if something was magically blowing shit up, there wouldn't be as much opposition, but once one brings gunpowder into the equation...

[franceica.livejournal.com]

if something was magically blowing shit up, there wouldn't be as much opposition

So apparently the reason for opposition is (at least I think my initial opposition is) the fact that gunpowder doesn't sound magical enough! *laughs*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Magic's overrated anyway. :)

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

....I like the idea of black powder, my problem is the guerilla situation. That stuff is seriously volatile (very easy to blow up in your face, the people whose job it was to put the charges on city walls were risking their lives just carrying the stuff), and really, really hard to keep dry. I'd say it's almost certainly around, your problem is the situation the Pevensies are in is impractical. Black powder stores tended to be kept far away from any housing in very thick-walled little forts (google St Mawes and Pendennis castle for forts that were built in Tudor times as naval defence and thus built around having cannon and black powder as their main weapons) because it blew up on its own - I know a few people who've got a black powder licence just for Civil War (ours, not yours)re-enactment guns and that stuff is not kept in the house. Basically, I can see the Calormenes being able to use it since they've got control over all the stable housing and the ability to keep it dry, but the guerillas - nope.

So I vote for B & C.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I am not talking cannon, I'm just talking bombs, for, say, the Pevensies wanting to blow up a few walls here and there.

[dikela.livejournal.com]

I would like B&C, please.

1. Having fireworks doesn't always mean using gunpowder in war. Look at China. They invented the stuff, but they didn't fight with it.

2. Would Peter/Edmund know the precise proportions? And the commentary above about danger was ABSOLUTELY right.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, they did. (http://www.silk-road.com/artl/gun.shtml) We are talking about human beings here; every time we come up with something, our first reaction is to see how we can use it to kill each other.

2. I would put money on Edmund looking it up in England because he's got that inquisitive nature thing going on, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd played around a little bit with it in Narnia during the Golden Age. And Peter may or may not know.

[dikela.livejournal.com]

1. Sorry. My mistake.

This is your story. I am sure I would love it, whatever you deside.

[caramelsilver.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna go with D. Only if you don't use much of it though. It is Narnia after all not war England were every side keeps blowing each other up (meaning, you won't abandon the awesome Narnia warfare?). And excuse my ignorance and laziness, where would they *get* black powder? I have confidence in that you can make anything seem plausible in your Narnia!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

All gunpowder is is sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre in the right proportions; they could make it.

[saturns-hikari.livejournal.com]

D!!! Let's blow shit up!!
I already burned half the forests in Narnia down; how much worse can their situation get?
So true. I'm kinda surprised there's such debate over gunpowder. I think it'd be cool to see how the different Pevensies react. (and to BLOW STUFF UP!) If the Pevensies introduce using it warfare Lucy, maybe, I can see going "You'll ruin Narnia!" but Peter's like "don't care, most effcient way to RECLAIM NARNIA!!"

What I REALLY want to see is the return of a Narnian airforce! The carriers were *genius*! How many flying Narnians are left/can they be used/ I want really fun ways to use the Narnian abilities. Like what's different about fighting with/against creatures rather than humans?

I'd be really interested to learn about Peter and Edmund's military background. I think you mentioned Peter was RAF (SO PLEASE MAKE AN AIRFORCE!) but what about Edmund? I don't know much about British Malaya- ground forces or navy?

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I am also extremely surprised.

Some of the Narnians have gone extinct between LWW and PC, and there's a slight possibility that the Calormenes have hunted some species to extinction by the time "Dust" takes place; I'm debating the matter. The griffins would probably be one of those species. (seriously, I'm in debates to see how many people I can randomly kill off.)

Peter's an RAF combat pilot, and served in Burma during WWII (where he was shot down and declared MIA, thus causing his family to panic, and then walked out of the jungle three weeks later only looking vaguely bemused by this strange turn of events) and in Malaya a few years later. (He may or may not have served somewhere else in the interim; I'd have to do research on how often soldiers were deployed in the forties.) Edmund is an enlisted army infantryman, which means ground forces, the guys running around in the jungle. He got drafted; he wouldn't have joined otherwise, but Peter volunteered and he's in for life barring unforeseen other circumstances.

[saturns-hikari.livejournal.com]

(seriously, I'm in debates to see how many people I can randomly kill off.)
Haha! Calormenes hunting them to extinction...in my mind that means rich ladies with griffin feather hats and leapard coats.

Peter, stop going missing! Edmund was drafted? Wow, my british history is even more spotty than I thought. What would he have done otherwise?
Pevensies in England fascinate me! I don't think I mentioned this, but I love Lucy in training as a nurse and then hestiating to heal Edmund. It's strange that the other Pevensies get older, but Lucy often seems to get younger. Peter is definitely a career military. Was Edmund in school? Susan?

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Peter has this absolutely horrible habit of going missing; I know he's done it for long stretches twice in Narnia and probably about a dozen times for much shorter stretches.

Edmund would have gone to university and then to law school, probably. Susan -- I'm not sure about Susan. She's not old enough to have been drafted; they let all the women go at the end of the war. (England was the only country to draft women in WWII.) Secretarial job, maybe, or there's a possibility she's working for the Secret Service. Not sure. *shrug* Should probably figure that out.

I like to think that Lucy and Edmund both got -- younger, to an extent; neither of them are quite on their game in "Dust." Edmund's a little more so just because he was doing basically the same kind of army stuff in Malaya.