the things you learn from genderfuck

[bedlamsbard]

Here's an interesting point that no one's ever brought up: Caspian's a traitor. He betrayed Miraz, he betrayed Glozelle, he betrayed his bloodline, and he betrayed Telmarine Narnia.

Why do you think the White Witch was so interested in him during PC?

Who's writing that story?

This realization brought to you by King Edmund the Highly Suspicious.

Comments

His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

GOOD POINT, WOMAN! \O/

I don't think I've ever seen that brought up before. But Caspian, who had every reason to be loyal to his *people*, if not to Miraz (who keeled hees fathair, after all...hey, *was* Miraz the younger brother? What if he just killed his *younger* brother! Hey! PLOT!)...er, where was I?

Oh, yeah-Caspian is looked on as a hero and the founder of a new, united Narnia, etc etc, because 1)he won (and victors write the history) and 2)Aslan approved him.


I personally dislike the "Edmund was a traitor" plot because he wasn't a king of Narnia when he fell in with the White Witch, so imo, he had no loyalty owed to them. He *did* turn on his family, briefly, repenting it almost as soon as he did it (it's there in the book!), but that was a personal betrayal and not on the same level at all.


But I do think that Edmund would be the one to point it out. The others would probably see Caspian, again, as "Aslan-approved" and just trying to get back what was his and all; but Edmund would *also* see the extra layer of...hey, that's kinda crappy. *frowns*

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I have never, ever thought about this (and for the record, I don't think Caspian ever thought about it as treason even when he was probably telling Peter and Edmund the intimate details about the makeup of the palace and the army), until Peta's Edmund brought it up -- and he's a hell of a lot more suspicious than canon Edmund, which is fascinating, and makes me wonder exactly what went down during the Petaverse LWW, because I don't think it was the same exact thing as in canon. (Another fun fact: Petaverse Edmund isn't named "Silvertongue." I think that's actually a name Caspian's going to pick up. *bewildered*)

I will quote Edmund here, because this is too good not to share:
“Let me make my sister’s point clear,” Edmund says. “You’re a traitor. You turned your coat once; who’s to say you won’t do it again. She’d rather have you here under her eye than wandering around your uncle’s castle with the lives of six mice and me at stake immediately, and the lives of everyone in the How should you decide that whatever Telmar offers you is more than what Narnia can give. She’s just polite enough not to say it.”

...[snip of Peta being sarcastic and Caspian being horrified and trying to defend his honor]...

“Learn something today, Prince Caspian,” Edmund says. “You don’t have any honor just now; you turned your back on that when you turned your back on your country and your blood. And you certainly had your reasons, and they may even have been good ones, but whatever they are, you walked away from your oaths and you turned your coat. So you’re going to have to earn your honor this time, and you’re going to have to fight damn hard for it, and if you’re lucky, you may even get it back. But until then, you’ve forfeited that right, so don’t look so surprised and don’t look so hurt.” He lets go of Caspian’s elbow with a rough jerk that Caspian’s sure will bruise, and probably deliberately so.
*blink* God, Edmund's certainly going to focus on the fact that Caspian betrayed his family.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

LOL. *points at line* No shit. I mean, he's Edmund. He'll be sniping at anyone who has betrayal on there resume.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

It gets even more interesting when you note the fact that Warsverse Edmund never once picked up on this fact. The Petaverse Pevensies are in some ways a lot more observant than the Warsverse Pevensies. (On the other hand, I think the Warsverse Pevensies actually got more accomplished, so there's a win-lose here.)

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Really now? That's strange....you woulda thought that Warverse Edmund would have picked up on it. Hmmm, maybe 'cause the Petaverse Pevensies are 3 girls and a guy, which makes them more observant? You said Peta was more observant that Peter.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I think there might be a strong possibility that Peta's reign wasn't as rock-steady as Peter's (at least as far as foreign affairs goes) because she's a woman and not a man, and so Narnia was getting attacked more often because not only was she young, but she was female, on top of that. And I'm pretty sure that Petaverse Narnia would have been more diplomatic and less warlike than the Warsverse, which leads to...well, being more observant. They don't underestimate Caspian the way the Warsverse Pevensies do; he barely registers on the Warsverse Pevensies' radar until he pulls his stunt at the castle. Here, though...

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I mean the whole lot of the Petaverse Pevensies are constantly being underestimated (Peta even moreso than Peter, obviously). I think it makes them more considerate :D

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

And by "considerate", we mean "paranoid." *grin*

It's interesting; neither one of the two groups is necessarily better than the others, but they go about it in entirely different ways...and all because of one teetiny little change.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, nice.

LOL, I wouldn't call it a teeny tiny change. I mean, gender....and thus personality....well, it's pretty drastic if you ask me. I haven't seen a gender-switch AU before yours in this fandom.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Most of the genderswitch AUs I've read are in SG-1 or in SGA; they don't tend to show up in that many fandoms. It's fascinating, though, because it chagnes everything.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Thus why it's not a teeny-tiny change. .....So far, you've only genderswitched Peter and Edmund, right?

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I've played around with doing Susan and Caspian, but it's not a major thing.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

LOL, I kinda wanna see man!Susan.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Sam Pevensie -- but I don't really know all that much about him.

Now, girl!Caspian, on the other hand -- fairly useless, that one.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Hahahha, girl!Caspian makes me laugh. He's already incompetant enouh as a guy.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

The only way that I can see girl!Caspian working is with Peta rather than Peter.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

......Does that make Peta bi?

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Hey, in my head, they're pretty much all bi, just some more so than others.

Re: His name is Aslan and he approves his message. *nods*

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Yes, quite true.

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

He may have betrayed Miraz, but I think anything he owed him as family was gone once Miraz tried to have him killed, so is it really flat-out-betrayal? Also the killed-his-father thing, even though Caspian didn't find that out till later.

He definitely betrayed the rest of Telmarine Narnia, though. You're right about that. I hadn't thought about it this way at all until now; in the books it was just portrayed as "Caspian leaves the bad guys for the good guys! Yay Caspian!"

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Because the books are written by Lewis, and Lewis is definitely in favor of the Narnians, but the second the castle attack happens Caspian's turned his coat; he's killing Telmarines. He's probably killing men he knew, and he certainly gave Peter and Co. the information they needed to get into the castle. It looks fabulous since he won, but if he hadn't -- or if the Pevensies had been thinking straight -- well, then.

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

"if the Pevensies had been thinking straight" - you mean if they had realized that having a traitor among them was a really bad idea for their own safety? or are you thinking in terms of the Pevensies being fair-minded towards the Telmarines? The latter seems really unlikely considering how the Telmarines treated Narnia and the Narnians.

I still think almost being killed by the Telmarines is a strong reason to turn against them. To find out suddenly that your father's throne is being usurped and that the guard would kill you with a word from a man who shouldn't rightfully be king... it doesn't mean he wasn't killing men he knew, or that some of them might have been on his father's side more than MIraz's. I just don't think he's pure conscious traitor. reckless and inconsiderate at least.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I do not think the Pevensies were as self-aware as they maybe should have been, or might have been once, especially given their track record towards treason and (semi-)accidental treason.

I'm also positive that Caspian didn't consider what he was doing either treason or treachery, and that he probably went the entirety of his life without thinking it unless he had someone hit him over the head with it. And yes, I think that whatever oaths he had were forfeit the moment Miraz tried to kill him, but the point still stands that he went over to the enemy, though whether or not he was consciously thinking of it that way is up for consideration.

(I am also shocked that Petaverse Edmund and Peta realize this and shove it in Caspian's face -- and Caspian is shocked and horrified and denies it, because he doesn't think of it that way at all -- but it never once crosses canon Edmund and Peter's minds. Which makes me really curious about how LWW went down in the Petaverse.)

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

I think the main difference in your PC characters (and others', too) is that the Golden Age they went through was no piece of cake, full of conquering and actually running a country, whereas Lewis' was uneventful enough to gloss over as full of parties and feasts and epic hunts. Canon Edmund and Peter I'm sure have never had to deal with considering the relativity of good and evil, since Lewis' world is black and white (and thus, well, not very real).

But if you think it traces to parts of LWW that Lewis actually plotted out, I am really curious to what you think happened :D if it ever comes to you, that is.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

And at this point when I said canon Edmund and Peter, I actually meant Warsverse Edmund and Peter. *facepalm* Who also didn't notice, or if they did, they haven't mentioned it, and I don't think they have mentioned it, even though I haven't written any early PC stuff at all.

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

Oh, *that* canon. :)))))

It seems to me that Warsverse Peter and the rest of the Pevensies totally bowl Caspian over, and he is timid and young-seeming and they are all sorts of in charge. So whether or not he was a traitor didn't seem to matter to them because they treated him as all sorts of clueless and unimportant in the early stages of reclaiming Narnia. Unless I'm remembering wrong.

Maybe Petaverse Edmund feels he has to be more suspicious and protective since he is the only brother?

Also, you write gay Peter, but I don't think I've seen you do gay Edmund. Is this casting really intentional and reasoned out? (I assume yes, because you seem to have a reason for pretty much everything, what with your world-building.)

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah, canon as in the sense that Peter is, you know, Peter. And not Peta.

I think you may be right there. Peter and Peta are different in all sorts of interesting ways; Peter's a lot more aggressive than Peta, at least at this juncture, but Peta's -- well, Peta's a woman, and she's used to being underestimated for that, so I think she's much less willing to underestimate Caspian. And she notices a hell of a lot more than Peter does; she has to. She's also much more willing to make friends with Caspian than Peter is; Peter and Caspian are at loggerheads from pretty much the beginning on, but Caspian's kind of bowled over by Peta being Peta. He has no idea how to treat her; she's a woman, and she's a queen, and she's a warrior. (And the one time he tries to talk down to her because she's a woman, she punches him in the face, so he learns his lesson.)

Maybe so. And what's also interesting is that this Edmund is not the diplomat of the family; this Edmund never earned the nickname Silvertongue. He's a lot more abrasive than Warsverse Edmund and I have no idea why. (He's also got a completely different reputation than Warsverse Edmund. It's fascinating.) I think he doesn't have to keep Peta in check as much as Warsverse Edmund has to keep Peter in check; that's probably part of it.

My Edmund is more or less straight, emphasis on the more. I don't know if it's really reasoned out so much; he has experience with men, but it tends to be experience of the Mata Hari type more than the "I like it" type.

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

On Edmund not being the diplomat:

How is your Susan in the Petaverse? Because in canon(Lewis and Warsverse) she and Peter fall into playing mother and father for the younger ones, Susan moreso. So as Peter became the protector, she became sort of castle chateleine and hostess for ambassadors. Because obviously the people the ambassadors meant to talk to were Peter and/or Edmund. With the High King being a Queen, there's really less sense in indulging the foreigner's sense of what the royal hierarchy should be, and Susan just works out all of the trade and other agreements while she's s serving tea; smiling prettily and fingering the suspiciously sharp flatware.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure it's Susan here who's the diplomat, with a side of Lucy and Peta. Edmund...not so much, and I think that might be because the Edmund here has to play some of the role that Peter takes on in canon/Warsverse: because he's the only male, he has to take on the role of being the muscle, and the threat. And Peta's definitely in charge and she's aggressive, but she sees a lot more than Edmund does; in some ways, I think she and Petaverse Edmund switched places with Peter and Warsverse Edmund. I think Petaverse Edmund may have some of the same blinders that Peter does as far as seeing shades of gray.

I wonder if this Edmund was still the one in charge of the spy network? *curious*

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

Well Peta's still head of the army, so its not like she'd have the time. And Susan is off conquering the known world through drawing room conversation. Lucy. It comes up kind of like an afterthought, but it depends on how Lucy developed in the Petaverse. You already established that growing up almost entirely in Narnia gave her a very different view of morality.

If Edmund were less antagonistic (which seemed partly a way to get Peter's attention), I can totally see her becoming sneaky, mostly in an effort to keep up with the big kids. And NO ONE would ever suspect her! And she could go on trips and things and no one would suspect because she'd hang the "gone on spiritual sabbatical for Aslan" sign on her door. And Peta would shrug and Susan would think it a bit over the top cloak and dagger and Edmund would become ridiculously protective because Peter's not here to do that any more.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

It's kind of fascinating, because this Edmund is much more obviously Peta's second in command than Warsverse Edmund. And I did not realize this until I was actually writing the story. (Well, okay, this isn't the sort of thing that was going to come up in all the Peta/Caspian porn I was writing beforehand, but still.) Man, this is going to be interesting when Peta actually meets Warsverse Edmund.

Lucy...could work. I think it's either Susan or Lucy, or maybe a combination of the two. Peta's a little more involved than Peter is, but this Peta is also a much better diplomat than Peter; she has to be, since she has to deal with being underestimated for her age and her gender.

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

It is a bit hard to fine-tune characterizations of secondary characters when they are not actively present in the porn. My main memory of Petaverse Edmund is him being vaguely amused at Peta dragging Caspian off with a side of "Please stop feeling the need to be open about your love life, I don't want to hear it."

I never even really thought of Susan as a Spymistress before, but I can see her doing it. She'd be in charge of the overall structure and intelligence with Lucy as her liutenant meeting with people in the land. Kind of the same structure of relationship as Peta-Edmund. It has symmetry, and it gives poor little Lucy something to do besides talk with Tumnus and his scarf.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Writing Lucy always kills me, because my Narnia generally tends to sum up to, "Lucy? What Lucy? Oh, her," but she's, you know, kind of important to have. Petaverse, though -- I was mostly writing Warsverse Edmund just with Peta, but that's not right at all.

Part three is going to be interesting. *grins brightly*

You know, if I'm not mistaken, I think Peta is, in some ways, a lot more like Warsverse Edmund than she is like Peter. Because my characters live to fuck with my head.

Susan as spymistress was actually my original theory back when I first started writing Narnia, and then I put it aside in favor of Edmund doing so. And -- this is kind of interesting -- I think what the Pevensies do, their basic job descriptions, is much more intertwined in the Petaverse than in the Warsverse, where it's pretty clearly delineated. (Witness: the way they almost fall apart the year Peter's missing.)

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Tried to send a reply earlier but it didn't work.

Their jobs would be more entwined because, whiel Peta is most certainly in charge, she's not the same kind of patriarchal, absolute, mandate-of-heaven type of in charge Peter is. So they'd have to share more to make things run smoothly. I can see them developing a subtle set of signals for court for someone else to jump seamlessly into a conversation and giving them a reputation for an eerie coheseiveness.

Speaking of this somewhat more democratic Narnia, Narnian checks and balances! (Why yes, I did just make sixth grade gov't lesson plans. Your point?) Considering their tendency toward posession/amnesia/impersonation, would someone (not Petaverse Edmund I suppose, so Susan?) suggest a system to make sure that whoever is posessed raise an army and rip the country in half?

I now have this image in my head of weekly Narnian "board meetings" for Petaverse, which everyone takes surprisingly seriously as reports are shared and progress updated. There's a map on the wall for what Peta and Susan are (respectively) conquering and Tumnus comes in with a tray of coffee and takes sandwich orders.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

All this is doing is making me even more eager to get to part three, where Peter and Peta are clashing over who's in charge. (Part two, now, they're just having sex all the time. Also, Peta is moping, probably. Now, part one, which I'm working on now, is interesting, because Peta's not as headlong as Peter is. She can't be.)

The rumor about the Petaverse Pevensies is probably that they can read each other's minds...

Doesn't raise an army and rip the country in half, I'm assuming. *grin* I can actually see Petaverse Edmund doing that, because he's absolutely, brutally cynical and all about the worst-case scenario, wheras I think in the Warsverse it would probably be Susan who drew up a plan, if they did so.

*grins* Compared to Warsverse, where they all know Peter well enough that he doesn't even have to give orders; they all just wander into his study and bitch about it until he shows up, raises his eyebrows, and then they get down to business?

On another note, I don't think the Petaverse Golden Age Narnia was as big as in the Warsverse; I think they were a little too practical to go on the same conquering kick that Peter did. ("It's in the neighborhood? It's mine.") *considers more* And while I think Petaverse Edmund is more cynical, I think the Warsverse Pevensies are, overall, more pragmatic and more aggressive, even Susan and Lucy. Seriously, the personality clashes are going to be epic.

On a related note, Edmund's not named Silvertongue -- Caspian is.

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

Yes yes, "doesn't" raise an army. Ignore me and my silly typos.

If Caspian ends up being up being Silvertongue, who is Edmund when he's at home? I understand that they all share responsibilities more here, and Edmund's more of Peta's second, but how was he immortalized? The people of the time had to have polarized them, even Aslan gives them to the four directions. And what were they called in stories and songs?

Oooh! We already know that the attitude towards sex is pretty casual (thank you Peta) and Edmund is now the only boy, I feel he needs to basically sleep his way across the kingdom. Or at least have a nickname that says the Narnians think he did, whether or not it was true.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

This is what I'm trying to figure out. Also if he's still called the King of Shadows and the King of Whispers or not, and I think he might not be. (Hell, at this point, he may not even be the King of Evening. I AM SO CONFUSED.)

Peta's still the Queen of Summer, of course, but she may not be Bittersteel the way Peter is. On the other hand, then again, she may be. Oooh. Maybe she's Widowmaker, which in the Warsverse is one of Susan's nicknames.

...is it bad that my first reaction to that is "Shakespeare"?

[westingturtle.livejournal.com]

Okay, you say Widowmaker, I think Russian submarines. Just saying. And are you looking right now for names that she's called by her enemies or by her people?

Well, you could call him Shakespeare but I'm not sure the Narnians would really be in on that joke. Plus all of your other royal nicknames are compounds, so unless you're going for the rather horrible innuendo of "shake" "spear"...

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Given the circumstances of the Golden Age, they're all actually kind of interchangeable -- I mean, there are some thing syou wouldn't call any of the Pevensies to their faces (Stoneheart to Lucy, for example, or Whisperer to Edmund).

Hey, you brought it up in the first place.

Man, I wish I had my ASoIaF books here with me.