*whimpers*

[bedlamsbard]

Narnia got urbanized. I feel horrible. Tirian is all, "God, it's good to be home, even when home has been taken over by a foreign invader," and Peter is pretty much, "This is not Narnia. This should never be Narnia. May Aslan forgive us," because Golden Age Narnia never had towns, let alone cities. The closest they got was the semi-permanent Shifting Market and family- and clan- groups of Narnians -- not villages, not towns, and definitely not cities. Because towns are for humans, and Golden Age Narnia almost never had enough humans to form something like that. *shakes head* Especially not the seething mass of urbanity that is Cair Paravel.

Poor bastard.

ETA: Gee, Lewis, thanks for breaking my mythological brain. Why are there, like, no male river spirits aside from the suitably vague "river gods", and hello, I'm not actually going to say "river god" in Dust. Naiad, yes, and I may just say "potamaeid" and confuse ten million people (ha, like ten million people read my journal). Except that the MALE river spirit is canon for book and movie. *growls*

La la la, Peter is having a crisis, Tirian is actually being useful, because our boy Tirian is a city boy born and raised, Eustace is...not doing much of anything.

Comments

[mightypencil.livejournal.com]

...wasn't there a town in PC? Aslan brought Bacchus and Susan and Lucy there after they loosed the river god's chains

[mightypencil.livejournal.com]

...oh but of course that wasn't in the Golden Age! haha sorry my mistake x_x

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

But it's a good point. Narnia has been slowly growing, from its creation and under Frank and Helen's rule and their descendents, until the White Witch took over. It's very likely that she did kill off a great many humans, imo. She ruled for a century, after all.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

The White Witch must have killed off all the humans in Narnia -- by the time the Pevensies stumbled through the wardrobe, the Narnians weren't even sure if humans were real.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

We discussed this briefly before, I think. I don't see how she could have killed *all* the humans-some would have made it to the borders right before her reach...and she's a comparatively recent effect, too. Narnia had how many centuries of pastoral peace and development under King Frank and Queen Helen's line's rule?

Jadis might well have targeted elders and various long-lived leaders, so as to eliminate the source of stories and truth, and stamp out any underground resistance more easily. If the survivors didn't really know from personal experience, just their parents' or grandparents' stories that there used to be humans living in the isolated area of X ,what have you, then it *would* be hard to trust and believe in dimly-remembered legends.

Besides, it's not like the Pevensies met *all* of the Narnians, or even the most sophistated bunch of them, when they came through.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I think by the time of LWW there weren't any humans within Narnia's borders. And in the Warsverse, at least, she either killed or turned to stone all authority figures, elders, clan leaders, etc., so anybody who remembered humans is probably dead, turned to stone, or in denial by the time LWW happens.

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

URBANIZATION, that thing of simultaneous AWESOME and D-:
you should mention how the urban waste is polluting the rivers and stuff! and also how it smells. and eustace buys a meat-on-a-stick from a skeevy sidewalk vendor 'cos he's hungry, but then it makes him ill and tirian is like, "hmm, that may not really be beef." ooh, and how what nags at peter is that the place kind of reminds him of london, and that kind of blows his mind. uh. [/rambling

ooh, so you can just call them river spirits i guess?

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Is the vendor human? Because if he's not, the meat might be!!! 0.0


*laughs, scuttles off*

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

OMG EVEN BETTER

and eustace is all like D-: and like "i'm going to go insane!" and the others are like "lolwat" and eustace is like, "when humans cannibalize, they go insane!" and start babbling about kuru and the fore tribe in papua new guinea and the others are just like, "wat." and peter is like, "shut up scrubb we've got heads to break" OR SOMETHING.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Or Peter starts regaling Eustace, very bland and matter-of-fact, with the story about the time he was trapped in a cave or something and had to EAT his companions...and Susan's smiling pityingly, Lucy's giggling, and Edmund's pointing out practical details like "eating *both* of them was short-sighted, given there'd been a source of fresh water nearby-possible fish, you know"-etc. So Eustace can't be *quite* sure if he's having the piss taken or not, especially after some of the things he's learned about his cousins, recently.

Long pig, the other white meat! Bet it tastes like chicken, everything else does. :)

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, but Susan, Lucy, and Edmund are still back at the camp. :\

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Do you think Eustace isn't capable of bitching and vomiting all the way back to camp?

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

Aaaaah, that makes a lot of sense. XD

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*bats eyelashes sweetly* I can tell you from personal experience that neither raw whale or roast alligator taste like chicken.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Yer a sick woman, bedlam.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*archly* I prefer to call it "well-traveled."

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

And sick with it!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

yeeeeesssss. if only for the laughs, because heaven knows the rest is all angst. well, that and susan and edmund putting make-up on tirian.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Putting make-up on and arguing over what colors suit Tirian best and what's his best feature so they can emphasize it ("eyes!" "no,lips!"). Susan's all "I'm a girl, I WEAR this shit, ok?" and Edmund...well, Mata Hari of Narnia. *rotfl*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Well, Tirian's the most-wanted man in Narnia; his face is pretty well-known. They have to disguise him somehow unless they want his head on the chopping block!

(Cue Edmund: "You know, I could give him a broken nose. That might help." Tirian: "NO I DON'T THINK SO. um, your majesty.")

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Seems reasonable to me! :)

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

...I am so stealing that. Cair Paravel, the New Orleans of Narnia!

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

You've got cannibals in New Orleans?!!


It *would* be an efficient use of condemned prisoners. Narnian, that is. I doubt Louisianna would approve it, somehow. :)

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Well, we have in the past. New Orleans has a ton of vampire stories for a reason.

I doubt Louisianna would approve it, somehow.

Clearly you've never been to Louisiana. *grins*

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Well, they *do* throw anything into the gumbo...

[katakokk.livejournal.com]

OH GAWD. THAT'S FREAKY. AND COOL.

Ohhhh, they're all in such a muddle.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*nods* It reminds him both of London and some of the occupied cities he saw in the war, but what's somehow more horrifying is that it is recognizably Narnia, only not. Everything's twisted, and it hurts, and this doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Calormenes; this isn't something he can fight or what he came here to fight.

SKEEVY VENDORS. yes.

(The thing that's getting at me is that Tirian's reaction to returning to Cair Paravel is basically, "yes, thank you God, I'm home, even if the Calormenes are here, even if they'll kill me on sight -- I'm home," which has so far always been the Pevensies' reaction every time they're in Narnia.)

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

AND. oh man okay, so the golden age was all pastoral and rural and beautiful, it would be interesting i think to comment on how urbanization has brought on ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION and peter's like D-: at the state of the river because he used to know its naiad but now it is DEAD with like ALGAE AND SHIT (and literal shit) floating around in it, no living thing can live in those waters. and he can notice that like the closer they get to the city, the less trees there are because the calormene have harvested them all to like, make chairs. or whatever. fields where his armies used to train and where he used to have the summer festival, now FARMS. with COWS. FUCKING COWS. and all those dead dryads, felled for cabinets and four-posted beds, all those dead naiads, choked with refuse.

oh man, all the crazy they can see in the city! homeless fauns sleeping on the side of the road, some drunk pissing on a statue of some ancient telmarine king and peter is like, "tirian aren't you gonna do anything about that?!" and tirian is like, "what would it change? ppl have been pissing on that statue for years. it's not my job to monitor where ppl piss. there are more important things to worry about." and some random sketchy dude goes up to tirian and clutches him and they all blanch 'cos oh shit has someone recognized him? but no it's just some random crazy who's like, "but can we RIDE the llamas??" and wanders away again to be crazy somewhere else.

tirian's like, "the city has doubled in population in the past years," and peter's like why the hell would anyone want to live here and tirian shrugs and is like, "well, there is nothing in the country." and peter's like, "because you RAZED IT TO THE GROUND." and there is no choice except for mass urban migration if you don't want to live in abject poverty, and peter remembers a time when the fresh air and the spring grass and warm sun was enough to be happy in narnia, and that to have only these things did not mark you as bottom-rung, because it was what most other people have also. but i mean, they don't even have THAT anymore, no trees or clean brooks, because it has all gone into the belly of the beast that is the CITY. and you know what most of these opportunity-seeking migrants find when they get there? MORE POVERTY. urban poverty, GHETTOS AND SHANTIES.

and eustace is like so why don't they leave, and tirian is like, "they can't. like i said there is nothing back in the country, or worse, they have family back in the country, relying on them for remittances. or perhaps they have entered a contract of bonded labor--"

and peter's like, "how can you let your ppl live like this?"

and like, i don't have an answer for that. who does? this is just the system we have found ourselves in and have to work with. people equate modernization with urbanization and democracy but the city is not democratic, and far from egalitarian. the city is a selfish creature.

uhhhhhhhhhhh OOPS I GOT CARRIED AWAY THERE.

my urbanization angst let me show you it.

hmm on the other hand, tirian does throw a hissy fit in LB when he sees the calormene getting their deforestation on. but i know what you think of LB.


TELL ME ABOUT THE TASTE OF WHALE AND ALLIGATOR

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

yeeeeessssss. i will have to go back in this chapter and add in more of peter's urbanization angst as they near the city, because the far west is still pretty wild except for all the calormene patrols, they can handle that, it's more or less like pc. and pc was bad, pc was horrible because it's everything they know destroyed, but this, this -- this is everything they know DESTROYED AND DESPOILED.

and peter is going to blanch and go, "i wish that caspian hadn't called it cair paravel," and, like, jump into the ocean and swim to the nameless island, because even though the calormenes want to build a temple to tash here, the nameless island is having NONE of this shit, thank you very much. and the ruins of cair paravel are getting even MORE uppity than usual now that the pevensies are back in town -- hi, you know me and my sentient castle and my ghosts and whatnot.

I HAD COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN THAT CAIR PARAVEL IS AT THE MOUTH OF THE GREAT RIVER. oh, this is so going to be the most awesome combination of the thames and the mississippi ever. although probably a little more the thames than the mississippi, since new orleans is farther inland than cair paravel. BUT this means neighborhoods based on the river, and it will be like the west bank! except the great river runs east-west, so, like, the north bank and the south bank.


raw whale tastes fishy, more or less, but looks like raw beef -- all red with marbled fat. alligator tastes -- man, i don't know what alligator tastes like. not like chicken. a little like lamb, maybe.

[caramelsilver.livejournal.com]

"they can't. like i said there is nothing back in the country, or worse, they have family back in the country, relying on them for remittances. or perhaps they have entered a contract of bonded labor--"

OMG IT'S CHINA!!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

OR ANCIENT ATHENS. to continue on with the Greco-Persian Wars analogy.

heeeeyyyyy. the Persians burned Athens to the ground!

...suddenly this makes me way too happy, and also gives me Ideas.

[caramelsilver.livejournal.com]

Do we have some Pevensie's burning down Cair Paravel? Cause I don't mind!

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Well, if Cair Paravel is Athens, and the Calormenes and the Persians, then I don't think it's the Pevensies we'll have to worry about, but don't tempt me. The phoenixes may have died out during the Dying Times, but maybe there are still some somewhere!

Or there's always, you know, good old Greek fire.

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

it is like, most of the world! this is just domestic migration, and if we want to get into international migration (legal and otherwise) OH MAN. capital flight and the brain drain, and the city reaping what it sows because it is attracting all these people to its bright lights and it is full nigh unto bursting because the infrastructure and resources can't really support this many people. OVERPOPULATION ANGST. and the calormenes are like, "oh shit, what do we do about this?" and are like, "hey, let's subjugate some other countries and take THEIR resources!" "omg brilliant!"

although, if cair paravel does have something like china's hukou system, oh man, EVEN MORE URBAN ANGST. children of illegal status who have no access to health care and education because they don't officially exist. DOES NARNIA HAVE A CENSUS? CENSUS ANGST.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

*squints* I am...a military historian. THIS IS ALL OVER MY HEAD.

dude. if i have to research this on top of castles, clothes, military strategy (I picked up this (http://www.amazon.com/Book-War-Sun-Tzus-Karl-Clausewitzs/dp/0375754776/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228779270&sr=8-2) today. FEAR FOR ME), piracy, GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE (i am already resisting the urge to have a plague. that's just overkill, man)...

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

I FEAR FOR YOU MIGHTILY

but no, basically the city gets overpopulated, which worsens poverty and squalor. the city promises many people prosperity, and so they are lured to come, but these promises are LIES. and calormen is like "uh, the population of this city is growing at a faster rate than the city's ability to support them (food, housing, etc.)," so they distract inhabitants from this plight with some propaganda or some crap.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

it is the "art of war" and "on war"! i shall read it on the airplane.

OKAY. i think i get it. casual dinner table conversation with the crime lord after peter wakes up from being roofied! because the cair paravel mafia are Not Happy with this shit, yo, and they will welcome anybody who happens to not be the crazy calormenes. (not that the situation was really all that much better under tirian, but it's since gotten worse, and also, hey, that was in the past, the past always seems better than the present.)

if cair paravel is my athens, i am way too excited about the fact the persians razed athens to the ground and i'm -- kind of reenacting the persian wars in narnia and, uh...well. i'm just sayin' here.

[lassiterfics.livejournal.com]

OOH. black markets?? smuggling? HUMAN TRAFFICKING, TO FILL THE BROTHELS.

i mean i just reenacted the uncertain development of like the third world/the global south/ELDCs/whatever you want to call it in narnia so i think in conclusion excitedness we has it

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

those are, uh, all on my list. well, the human trafficking is canon. *stares at ceiling* OH LEWIS.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

It's puzzling, indeed. If he's drawing off Greco-Roman sources, the naiads would be all female-their male water spirit was not a lesser being, but Poseidon/Neptune and what's his name, Proteus. Gods. Same with the dryads-small fry spirits of nature seem to be only female, with their corresponding animalistic types of fauns, satyrs & centaurs being male. I think Lewis deliberately echoed that by having the Beruna river spirit being male, because it's a major river-so its spirit should be important. *smacks him*

Dunno if that makes sense, I'm up way too early and bleary with it. :)


Peter (and everyone) should look at the development of other pastoral nations that have a healthy economy and a need for citizens to increase the population for various reasons. (All those soldiers don't make themselves, ya know!) Plus, I've wonder about the birth rate and life span anyways-Narnians are a mix of non-human/tree/water/animalistic-based beings; would they reproduce as often as, say, trees or horses do? Etc. *blinks*

Allowing refugees into the country would have helped set up seeds for an increased human population; plus, humans *can* interbreed with at least some of the Narnians (witness Cornelius). So, again, population growth. The only thing that kept the growth down was probaly Peter's wars. It's been a LONG time and any country changes over the course of decades, much less centuries and millenium...

bleah bleah bleah, I'm goin' back to bed. *stumbles off*

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Well, and what changed between LWW and PC was that humans became the dominant species in Narnia; by the time PC rolls around, humans outnumber nonhumans by a pretty substantial margin. (2 to 1? 3 to 1? 4 to 1? A lot, even counting in all the talking animals.) Whereas in LWW, there aren't any humans in Narnia, and the default setting for the Narnians isn't "town." There are probably a couple of village-like setups, but that's mostly with centaurs and dwarves (possibly the marsh-wiggles, too); otherwise the closest things you've got are the family- and clan- groups.

Throughout the Golden Age there was a steady trickle of human immigrants and refugees, which probably set up the seeds of a few mostly-human communities scattered around the edges of whatever estates Peter bestoyed on the nobles he got, but otherwise the single biggest concentration of people, human and otherwise, was at and around Cair Paravel (and possibly Arn Abedin, the other major castle), which probably would have turned into a real city given a few more years, but never did.