i'm not flocking this because this is my journal and i believe in telling the truth

[bedlamsbard]

If I have one more person tell me that I'm missing the entire point of the books -- there is someone going through my meta now and I'm getting the comment notifications and they are pissing me off.

I am not Christian. I did not come at the books from a Christian POV, or even from a religious POV at all. No, the books are not meticulously plotted out. No, the movies are not the books. Yes, I have explicitly stated EVERYWHERE that I write movieverse and not bookverse, so don't challenge my characterization on bookverse grounds. (Leeway on Eustace, Jill, and Tirian, obviously, but what she's getting at is mostly my Susan portrayal.)

Yes. Perhaps LWW was written as a standalone book. It doesn't matter how it was written. You know why? Because it's not read as a standalone book. It doesn't matter what the authorial intent is; it matters what the reader reads.

And no. No, I didn't read the religious themes in the book; I wasn't raised to be religious, I'm not sure I was even raised with a very strong concept of religion until about the time I hit middle school. And I read the books a long time before then, and even then, my religious underpinnings are not Judeo-Christian by any means.

Here's the truth: I did not realize that Lewis's point in the books was religious until this year. I knew there were religious themes. To be honest, I more or less skimmed over them. I couldn't -- and I still can't -- reconcile what happens in the books with what people seem inclined to tell me over and over again is Lewis's point; it makes no logical sense to me and never has. And you know what? It probably never will. No matter how I contort my brain.

Yes. The books are inconsistent. You know what the fun of fic and meta is? Trying to make those inconsistencies consistent and give a reason for them. A SENSIBLE, LOGICAL reason.

This is what I believe: "There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, / And every single one of them is right!"

No one comes at the story from the same angle. No one.

And once the book is in print, it doesn't matter what the author wrote. It matters what's on the page. And that's true for anything and everything: books, television, movies, music, dance, artwork, speeches, crossing the street, anything.

Comments

[nighean-isis.livejournal.com]

When I first read the Narnia books, I was 8 years old - my mom gave me a copy of 'Lion, Witch, Wardrobe' for Xmas. I read the series as wonderful fantasy. I was in *college* before I discovered that Lewis apparently wrote the stories as Christian allogory. NOT seeing them that way is a totally valid point of view. I have to admit - I haven't read your Narnia fic, although reading you talking about it has been fun and entertaining - but I do intend to read it eventually. Whatever these people's problem is, I don't get it either. I think I'll check out your Narnia tag though. I *know* I won't agree with these folks, but I can always use a good laugh (at them, not you).

You know - I did have a point when I started this, but somehow it went away...

[nighean-isis.livejournal.com]

replying to my own post to add: skimmed the prologue and first chapter. *What was I thinking?!?!!* *Why haven't I been reading this all along?!??*

Right now I don't have my own computer (it's at the computer guru's being fixed) but as soon as I get it back, I'm gonna *devour* this fic.

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

Yes. Perhaps LWW was written as a standalone book. It doesn't matter how it was written. You know why? Because it's not read as a standalone book. It doesn't matter what the authorial intent is; it matters what the reader reads.

*eyebrow* Has this person not noticed that C.S. Lewis, whatever he had in his head when he wrote LWW, wrote the rest of the series with the intention that LWW would be read as part of it? There's even an Author Preferred Reading Order, in which the books are usually printed. *headdesk*


And once the book is in print, it doesn't matter what the author wrote. It matters what's on the page. And that's true for anything and everything: books, television, movies, music, dance, artwork, speeches, crossing the street, anything.

Y HELLO THAR ROLAND BAARTHE. *cackles* I beg to differ, however: it does matter what the author intended, but it doesn't matter in the same degree or in the same ways in every context. I get ticked off with academics who behave as if the characters have identities and wills of their own, as if there's a reality beyond either what's on the page or what the author intended (depending on the situation). On the other hand, this is fanfic, in which there are character identities and wills beyond the page or the author, and the most fascinating thing about fandom is the way it gets into a dialogue with canon and with authorial intent- either directly or second hand through movieverse. The places where fandom as a whole says 'fuck you' to authorial intent are the most interesting...

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

Addendum:

ahaa I just found one of the comments in question. That's really very, very hilarious, because, as I said, your Peter characterisation has gone and dug itself into mine and pretty much settled down to stay. Our Susans are pretty different, lets not go into that again, but the difference there isn't about religion or even canon (bookverse Susan being completely inconsistent as a character, and I don't do movieverse, as a rule), it's an unrelated hobby horse I'm riding, and I'm not stupid enough to completely invalidate yours just because we're creating different characters. *eyeroll*

The amusing thing is that I do, and always have, read Narnia as a religious allegory. (In fact, I refused to read it for many years because of that.) My characters come a lot closer to treating Aslan as God than yours do, but I'd take your Pevensies with their strained friendship with Aslan over Anon's simplistic faith any day. This is probably because I'm using Narnia to exorcise my own religious demons, and Clive Staples would probably say something cryptic and Digory-ish and look sadly at me over his glasses if he knew.

[(Anonymous)]

Dear Bedlam - go for it. I've been stalking your lj for a while now, following your fics and your spin on the Narnia stories, and I can only say that CSL should be extremely grateful to you for making his incredibly two-dimensional characters come to life. Your Narnia fics give the most realistic, haunting and in all ways convincing characterisations I've read. I started writing fics got my own entertainment a while ago, but haven't posted anything because I've found I'm starting to rip off your verse and characterisations shamelessly, so I'll cuddle them to myself.
And may the god-botherers keep themselves to themselves. Like many others, I had to slog through LB, the most bloody depressing yarn of all time, before it was finally whacked over my head that CSL was pushing a barrow. So please keep going. Am desperately hanging out for Till Human Voices Wake Us. As icing on the cake, I thank any deity of your choice that I've chosen to follow a writer who has more than a passing acquaintance with spelling and grammar.

[crewel.livejournal.com]

My mother tried to raise me to be religious, and I was given a lovely boxed set of the books when I was a kid by a very religious aunt. I pretty much missed all the religious stuff when I first read the books, and really only noticed it and thought about it when I realized that Christian bookstores were really, really pushing the movie.

Anyways, hi! I friended you recently because it turns out you're writing the type of Narnia fics I've been hoping to find for years. I'm horrible about commenting, but trust me, it made my day when I followed a random link to your journal a few weeks ago.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Hear hear.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

I count myself as an agnostic - not even an atheist because that takes a certain strength of non-belief that I don't have either. I read the books between the ages of 8 and 13 (which is when I finally got hold of The Last Battle) and what I saw and recognised in them at that time was the same thing I saw in a lot of other books for children - not religion as such but a strong moral tone, to be taken as an example.

The recognition of the Christian allegory as such came later, along with realising where characters like Bacchus had come from. For me they're all just source influences, and elements in the worldbuilding. They can't possibly be the entire point, because they're not what made me read and re-read the books. That was an interest in the characters and the adventures and the magical fantasy land.

Also, I hadn't the slightest interest in reading Narnia fanfic when the bookverse was all there was. It was the movieverse's interpretation of the books that fired my imagination, with its deeper characterisation and sense of place, and while the religious aspects are there, they're stripped down to the abstract. Prince Caspian may still be about faith, but it's a faith grounded in self-belief and trust in your friends and what's right, as much as belief in your demi-god. And, frankly, I like it better that way.

So please keep on not getting the point, because so much of Narnia fandom seems to involve religion and/or book purity that it's nice to find a little corner of it where I don't feel completely at odds with what everyone is saying.

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

Narnia fandom seems to involve religion

Really? Cause I feel actively discouraged from writing or talking about the religious aspects in Narnia fandom. Unless you mean like, people who don't write fan fic or if they did, won't come near slash or explicit het.

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

I would read religiously aware slashfic, if someone wrote it! (I think someone may have challenged ME to write it, actually... need to figure out a way to do that...) And although my current Suspian is probably not going to end up explicit, I can promise you a Serious (although not necessarily happy) consideration of questions of faith therein.

If you're feeling in need of Narnia fic which plays along with the Dreaded Allegory, you could do no better than anachronisma's work, posted at karigans_fic; and given our mutual fondness for Edmund, I think you might like some of the things posted at justkingedmund, too.

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

(I think someone may have challenged ME to write it, actually... need to figure out a way to do that...)

I bet you'd do it well. And "actively discouraged" was a bit of an exaggeration *blush*

Everyone has their angle with this series, and I'm an amateur internet theolgian so that's pretty much...that's what I do. And it's all so tangled up in my beliefs already, because I was introduced to the series about the same time I began to really grasp concepts of God and religion(my dad's a pastor and also a SF/F fan) so I'm coming from the other direction. I can't *not* see the NT in it.

and given our mutual fondness for Edmund, I think you might like some of the things posted at justkingedmund, too.

I'll check those out when Im done my Porn Battle fics (or if I give up on them). OOh, more Edmund fic!

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

And it's all so tangled up in my beliefs already, because I was introduced to the series about the same time I began to really grasp concepts of God and religion(my dad's a pastor and also a SF/F fan) so I'm coming from the other direction. I can't *not* see the NT in it.

Me too - the books my school librarian recommended when I was six or seven, I would've had some description of the allegory given to me then. And after that we had the BBC miniseries force-fed to us on a regular basis. Certain sectors of my school seemed to think that C.S. Lewis wrote the Newer Testament, or something. Eventually I got fed up and stopped reading them - and under the influence of Tolkien got all snarky about allegory being simplistic and stupid. This, in hindsight, is ridiculous, and the levels of allegory in Narnia vary from the Bleeding Obvious to very subtle.

So... yes, the Dreaded Allegory is all tangled up in everything I write. I keep cutting the references from my C/E fics, the don't seem to fit, but it's there in the background. And it's very present in parts of the series I'm calling "Heroes and Queens". It's not happy, not by far, but that's because I'm taking my own angst out on the Pevensies. I lost my faith, my faith disappeared on me, whatever you want to call it. I think maybe I'm having a conversation with the Dreaded Allegory that I can't have with God?

justkingedmund are really interesting. You know how agenttrojie and tea_fiend, xxlucyferxx, and I all write FAIRLY similar Edmunds, like we're orbiting around the same conceptual centre? The writers writing for justkingedmund have a similar sort of mutual interpretation dynamic going on, but it's completely removed from the common interpretations of slash fandom. SO VERY INTERESTING.

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

This, in hindsight, is ridiculous, and the levels of allegory in Narnia vary from the Bleeding Obvious to very subtle.

It's kind of onionlike. I understood it in very simple terms when I wa slittle, and as I get older I peel back more interesting layers-sometimes I find out that even though the allegories are still based on the same things I was always told they were, they don't always mean what I was told they mean (the Slactivist blog has this great entry about how "Prince Caspian" is making fun of conservative evangelicals).

the don't seem to fit, but it's there in the background.

Well, these things are best when they're used appropriately-religious themes are such a fine line. Nobody wants to be reading a slash fic and suddenly be confronted by random!surprise!religion.


I think maybe I'm having a conversation with the Dreaded Allegory that I can't have with God?

That's what I think it's there for. I mean, I'm of the opinion that that's part of what Lewis was using it for (that entire dialogue with Digory and Aslan about his mother, or Jill and Eustace debating the Rapture, etc). He had issues too, and he tries to confront them.

The writers writing for justkingedmund have a similar sort of mutual interpretation dynamic going on, but it's completely removed from the common interpretations of slash fandom. SO VERY INTERESTING.

Hmm. That does sound interesting. I went straight for the slash when I decided to join the fandom, lol.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

Unless you mean like, people who don't write fan fic...

Pretty much. I don't think I've seen much of it in fanfic. Mostly I stumbled upon it when, after re-reading the entire series last year I went off in search of some meta to chew over.

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

so much of Narnia fandom seems to involve religion and/or book purity that it's nice to find a little corner of it where I don't feel completely at odds with what everyone is saying

I'm like babydracky- in the corners of Narnian fandom where I lurk, there's myself and anachronisma who even THINK about the religious allegory, and everyone else either ignores it or is actively hostile. And except for my fellow Ed/Caspian shippers, almost everyone seems to privilege movieverse over bookverse.

Evidently Narnian fandom is very segmented, or something. I have noticed much, much more religious musings over at justkingedmund...

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

The intense religious focus is something I've stumbled across on fansites doing lit crit analysis of the text, and on the discussion boards, more than anywhere else. I don't think I've really seen it in fanfic circles, but I've not had time to read as much of the fanfic as I want to as yet, so my perspective might be slightly out of kilter. :-) My own interest, as an adult, has a bit of a socio-economic/political focus - for instance, would Edmund have been quite so strongly tempted by the turkish delight if sweets hadn't been under wartime rationing?

As for bookverse vs. movieverse, I think I weigh up LWW about 50-50 between the two. With Caspian I do prefer the movie though, because it does cool things like touch on the consequences of having an adult's experiences in a child's body, and the unsettling aspects of switching between two worlds, as well as giving the Telmarines more depth and establishing the fate of Prunaprismia and her son. All of which tends to get dismissed by dismayed cries of "but they changed the plot" (which is what I meant by book purity), and I think that's a shame. Both book and movie do different things in different ways, while telling essentially the same story, and the differences are as interesting as the similarities.

[ineptshieldmaid.livejournal.com]

My own interest, as an adult, has a bit of a socio-economic/political focus - for instance, would Edmund have been quite so strongly tempted by the turkish delight if sweets hadn't been under wartime rationing?

OH WOW. That's a fabulous question. :D

PC does such interesting things with the characters, you're right, and although I'm writing bookverse it winds up influencing my fic - I guess I treat it like another piece of (very good) fanfic?

All of which tends to get dismissed by dismayed cries of "but they changed the plot" (which is what I meant by book purity), and I think that's a shame.

Which just reminds me that there must be huge swathes of narnia fandom ASIDE from slash fandom, because I've not heard anyone protest that online. RL, yes. HUUUGE fights with one of my best friends over whether or not the producers have the 'right' to change the story, and whether or not I have the right to like it. *eyeroll*

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

although I'm writing bookverse it winds up influencing my fic - I guess I treat it like another piece of (very good) fanfic?

Yes, that's exactly it. I see it as Andrew Adamson's love letter to the source material. It's a kind of overlay to the original template.

[caramelsilver.livejournal.com]

So, I went and found the anon comments, cause I'm a curious gal, and wow, they piss me off too!

Anyone reading any of your stuff should be able to see that you know what you're talking about. That you've read all the books but just choose to ignore some stuff. The thing about her comments that really got to me was that they were so condescending, like she was kindly enlightening you about stuff you didn't know!

Hell, I'm Christian and I did not see the allegory in the books before after the first movie came out and I picked up the books again. And even then I didn't see it! It was the internet that enlightened me on that.

Yes. The books are inconsistent. You know what the fun of fic and meta is? Trying to make those inconsistencies consistent and give a reason for them. A SENSIBLE, LOGICAL reason. -- This is what makes your fic so incredibly good. You manage to make it all logical. If you remember, the first time I stumbled over your journal I was quite shocked at your portrayal of Peter, but now I see nothing wrong with it, because you've written him in a way I can believe. Same with Susan. And Lucy. Only your portrayal of Edmund was somewhat the same as mine=)

And anyway, Prince Caspian the movie is so much better than the book. The movie actually have characters with personality.

[lazaefair.livejournal.com]

I first read the books around age 7 or 8 as well; to be honest, the religious allegory aspect immediately jumped out at me and proceeded to beat me over the head. But then, I was raised in a fundamental Christian home. Also, I firmly believe that Lewis wrote them as children's fairy-tales first; if there are Judeo-Christian parallels, it's because that was influencing his life very strongly, but they're not necessary to reading and understanding the books. Hell, the amount of pagan/Greek mythology that exists in Narnia is evidence that the books are not meant as allegory. It's much more fun to read them as adventure fantasy tales anyway.

Now, the Narnia movies vs. books is another issue with me entirely. But hey, it's personal preference. I do the same with Iron Man fandom (writing movie canon instead of pre-existing print canon) so it's not like I can argue about it in this fandom.

[snacky]

Insisting that there's only one way of reading a story? Doing it wrong.

You? Doing it right.

[lyamainu.livejournal.com]

Books are not about the author - they're about what the reader takes from them.

*hugs*

I'm sorry you're being hassled.

[ceirseach.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

Possibly, but what the reader chooses to take from them may be an intense fascination with what on earth was the author thinking/meaning. :) Which doesn't invalidate your point at all, of course. But writing is a performance art just like standing on stage - it imagines an audience, to a certain extent constructs one, and depends on that audience and their reaction for its continued existence (literally, in the case of the publishing industry). Which is to say that Lewis is important, as is the reader, becuase together they form the experience of the story. Until it's read, it's just words on a page - before it's written,it's not even that.

Which isn't to say, of course, that the reader has to agree with the author all the time, because many of the best and most interesting relationships involve argument! :) Certainly if you feel there's nothing at all you want to change or add to the story on the page there's no real inspiration to write good fanfic, so.

[starsimpulse.livejournal.com]

i don't really have anything really inteligent to say, so i'm just going to go with 'i love you'.

*hugs*

[1aquaesulis76.livejournal.com]

????!!!!! People are strange.

Aside from that, I started the Narnia books when I was 5 or 6 and the 'Christian bits' went totally over my head. In fact, they continued to do so until I found out at around 13 that CS Lewis wrote them that way. Re-reading them with that knowledge, I developed huge issues with the way he expressed his Christianity, and how the books developed - especially the Last Battle. I only read that one for the wonderful fact that Peter, Edmund & Lucy get to go back to Narnia, where of course THEY BELONG!

As for your handling of the characters, the situations & the events - everything CSL should have done, but didn't. You've made them *real*, so that they live in my head far more than they should! Thanks, keep writing, and ignore all those without enough imagination to get out of their own little bubbles. :)

[ceirseach.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

This thread started me thinking and grew into a long blog post about The Last Battle, Dust, and the relationship between author and reader, with a large dose of literary theory. Not posted yet, because I wanted to check if you're alright with me discussing Dust and linking back to you here?

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

I am perfectly all right with that, and flattered! Just drop me a line, I'd be interested to see it.

[ceirseach.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

'Tis over here (http://ceirseach.blogspot.com/2009/02/being-taken-in.html). Now that I have internet again!

[ceirseach.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

Huh, it wouldn't let me make it a proper link. Oh well.

[bedlamsbard.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And your post is interesting; I need to prod at it and think it over carefully, I think.