same old, same old

[bedlamsbard]

Looking at graduate schools -- for the PhD this time -- is just depressing, especially since I've got several problems:

(1) I'm not entirely sure what I want to do. My plan was to do my MA in Archaeology of the Roman World and then do a PhD in early modern history, but I'm reminded that I really, really do like ancient history and the classical world. However, I still don't think I'm qualified to get into a classics program in the U.S. (languages) and I'm not sure I want to be in one, because: elitist. I could do ancient history, but my classics department screwed me up enough that that feels like a cop-out, plus it could impact my job chances. (Although my other option is to do Renaissance Studies, and I keep getting warned off that because it could impact my job chances.)

(2) My MA program ends pretty late -- middle of September. The PhD program I really want to get into, history at Tulane, starts at the end of August, and my course director here doesn't think I should shave three weeks off my dissertation writing in order to do that. Plus, I don't know if Tulane, or any PhD program actually, will take me if I don't have the degree awarded yet. (I could e-mail the department secretary about this, I guess. I should also meet with my course director to talk about my plans after finishing my degree, since he might have some advice.) I don't really want to take a year off, and while some programs will take spring admission, Tulane doesn't. On the other hand, if I go straight ahead, I basically get no break between finishing the dissertation and going straight into a PhD program. On the other other hand (foot?), I don't know how I'd go about finding something to do for a year, even with a MA, since we keep getting told that we at least need a PhD to do anything in the field.

(3) I keep considering, on and off, trying to stay in the UK (possibly at Leicester) for the PhD, but I got told over and over again in undergrad not to do that, because the format for the British PhD is so different than the American one, so it's much harder to get hired if you want to teach in the U.S. Also I'm not sure about funding, and also I don't really want to deal with another three years of English weather. (Shut up, there's a reason I'm mostly looking at universities in the South, aside from Renaissance Studies at Yale.) Also the visa was enough of a hassle the first time 'round.

And now I am tired, but at least I thought about it. Except I thought about it, and then I looked at classics grad programs, and then I remembered one of the reasons I had my nervous breakdown last year. I know that I'm working towards an MA in a classics-related field. I don't feel anymore qualified than I did when I was working towards a BA in classics. In fact I feel less qualified because I've forgotten a lot of Greek and Latin. So that's depressing as all fuck. Like, in a year I will (praise all gods) have a master's degree and right now I feel like my ilfe's just -- in holding. I don't know. This is exhausting.

Also I have picked up a nervous twitch in my left eye that's going strong on day four. Thanks, universe.

Comments

[eight_demands]

I had no idea the PhD programs were so different - I'm actually hoping to do the opposite and finish my MA in the States before I go to the UK for my PhD in Library and Information Studies. It's still a long while away, which is why I haven't done a ton of research on it.

[bedlamsbard]

I think it depends on the discipline -- my advisers were in history, English, and classics, and apparently it's a big enough difference there that it shouldn't be done, but my archaeology profs here seemed surprised by that advice. So. *hands*

[snacky]

Plus, I don't know if Tulane, or any PhD program actually, will take me if I don't have the degree awarded yet.

The PhD program I used to work for would, as long as it was being awarded within a reasonable time frame. We also used to accept students straight from undergrad into the PhD program, with no MA in between as well. It was a different discipline, though (although a top-ranking PhD program).

On the other other hand (foot?), I don't know how I'd go about finding something to do for a year, even with a MA, since we keep getting told that we at least need a PhD to do anything in the field.

You might be able to find a faculty member at Tulane (or wherever you apply/are accepted) willing to take you on as a research/teaching assistant for the year, if you get accepted into the program for this fall, and then delay acceptance for the reason of finishing your MA.

Re: #3, yes, that is the same advice you would have received from people in all the grad programs I am familiar with in the US (although I know they do not frown on you doing your undergrad/MA at the same school). But in the program I worked for, we had several faculty members who had done their PhDs in the UK and were teaching in the US. We also had a faculty member who had done his MA and PhD at the same school (in the US)! So that is just to say, there are exceptions to every rule.

Bear in mind, I don't have a PhD, so this is all just advice from the admin part of the field.

[bedlamsbard]

Thanks.

It looks like most programs are geared towards applying undergrads, not postgrads, so now I feel like a rare bird, heh. Even if I don't necessarily feel like I'm all that much more accomplished than I was when I was an undergrad.

I suspect the UK v. U.S. thing might also differ by field, but yeah, I also one or two professors in the States who were at British universities, though I think they were teaching over here first before they were in the States. (If...that sentence made sense...?) I talked about going to the same university for grad as for undergrad with one of my profs, and apparently there's actually a professor at Tulane who did her undergraduate degree and her PhD at Tulane, and now teaches there! And come to think of it, I know someone like that at CWU, too. So it happens.

So here's my two cents...

[cursor_mundi]

Ok, so I think you absolutely, positively need to figure out (1) before you attempt any program. I just finished my PhD and I cannot stress enough that if you are not 100% certain that you want to work in the field that you're going into you will cause yourself anguish, suffering, and trauma atop all the anguish, suffering, and trauma a Ph.D. creates for you. A solution to this dilemma might be a double MA: your current program, and then either a classics MA or early modern MA. That would let you judge which field is preferable and it would also making a strong candidate for a Ph.D. program and on the job market (particularly the US market where variety is a sign that you can be an interesting colleague to the department and teach all the things, thus saving them money). But you must make this decision: the people in my program who were uncertain about whether they wanted to do this are no longer in the program, and they have lost years of time and sometimes money to the endeavor. In cruder terms: shit or get off the pot.

(2) Given the timing of your current program, I'd advise you not try for a Ph.D. in the fall because you'd have to extend your time in program to complete the MA thesis, or write it while starting a Ph.D. on the other side of the ocean. I do know a few people who began their Ph.D. while finishing an MA and while most of them did it, it took longer than expected (extra semester at least) and they looked distinctly white around the lips for the first year of their new programs. If you think that the stress and time management would become an issue, you should not rush into a new program yet. Finish this one and do it well, and then start the next and do it well; that is a better guarantee for success. There are options: you could do the research early and write the MA thesis early, allowing you to depart for a late August start of a Ph.D. (I know someone who is planning just this). You could try for another MA program: they are less intensive, and you might be able to manage a spring start there. But you can teach at the community college level as an adjunct with an MA, or even in major colleges (your fee would be lower) -- these are not things you can line up ahead of time, though, they are "at need" and are sometimes last minute. There's also the option of being a long-term sub in a high school, since most states allow emergency certification for temporary teachers (public schools) and don't necessarily need them (private schools). Private prep schools could find your skillset very appealing, too. And there's always the graduate student's fallback plan: barista.

3) The British / Commonwealth model is a research model: you propose your project going into the degree, and I do think the timelines are a bit more flexible (check with Highly), and you generally do minimal coursework in a research degree. I think there's also a taught degree, which might include some coursework; not sure. And the problem with cross-pollination is that the training is so different that even if we'd be equal in the classroom, US trained scholars are shaped to different ends. It's best to get your degree in the system where you want to work, for so many reasons, including skill transfers. I'm told by my buddy Gillian (Australian, just submitted her second Ph.D. for consideration) that there's also a lot of teaching skills that US scholars develop as part of their programs that UK scholars have to prove they have in different ways.

So, that's my two cents on your three concerns; I hope this ~wisdom from the other side~ (it is the Day of the Dead still, where I am!) helps you make your decisions. My advice boils down to this: don't rush.

(Also, have Girl!Tony icon, since she has a helmet and I feel this is appropriate in some way to your interests, lol.)

Re: So here's my two cents...

[bedlamsbard]

Thank you for the advice. (Sorry for the late reply, I usually need a few days to process everything.)

1) I think -- I think that, and I am still figuring this out, that my undergraduate classics department screwed me up so badly that I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to be comfortable doing classics at the postgraduate level. At the very least, if I don't think I can get into a program, even if I did, I'm going to be fighting my own issues re: classics the entire time, and that's just not healthy. (And I do have the same problem on a less extreme level even in my current program, which is archaeology of the Roman World in the School of Archaeology and Ancient History, not classics; I spend time I don't have going, "I'm not prepared for this, I'm not qualified for this, I shouldn't be here," even when intellectually I know that's not true. And that will be magnified about a million times if I do classics and I don't think I'm capable of functioning with that going on. Considering that just looking at classics postgrad programs sent me into a panicked anxiety tailspin...yeah. I absolutely cannot do that. So check classics off the list! I think, knowing my background, I'm going to be happiest and most comfortable in a history- or literature- heavy program. (Do I think that I could do English at the graduate level? Yeah, I do, and a couple of times so far this year I've sat back and said, "I wish I'd taken Dr. K's advice and applied to an English postgrad program," but I didn't so that's that. Also Dr. K was the one who made me cry and gave me half my classics issues in the first place, so...yeah.)

2) My original plan was (and I guess still is), to start and finish the (15K) dissertation early. Not entirely ideal, but...I had planned on doing that the whole time, so it doesn't really come as a surprise, since I knew the dates all along. *hands* It's -- okay, this is going to sound stupid, but -- it's crazy to think that I could actually do things with an MA, since I feel like I've been conditioned into believing that anything beneath the PhD level is useless in this field. So that's sort of a revelation. (Okay, so this comment is coming out as, "My education system has brainwashed me!" Which to be fair...)

3) Yeah, that's what I've always been told, at least for classics, history, and English. I suppose it might be different in archaeology since presumably this is a fieldwork-heavy discipline where that experience matters, or because there are an awful lot of archaeology jobs that aren't teaching, so presumably then it doesn't matter what system you get your PhD in, since you won't be teaching anyway, just digging and writing papers.

Thank you again! You always give great, thoughtful advice, and I really appreciate it.

Re: So here's my two cents...

[cursor_mundi]

With re: (1), it makes me so sadface to hear that you've been that burned, but it does sound like you've been thinking hard about this topic... The "Imposter Complex" hits everyone, especially Ph.D. candidates, and it doesn't go away, so if you're already having it with this particular field you should stay out for your own mental health. Honestly, graduate programs are brutal and few schools attempt to provide their grad candidates with the same care and concern they give their undergraduates. Nor do they give them the same concern they give the faculty (which is generally pretty pathetic anyway), so...good decision, if you don't mind me sticking my nose in. That's one down! Here's an idea with regards to a double MA: if you do a lit MA and then go for a history Ph.D., you will be well positioned to get work in the new and emerging swing category that some colleges are looking for -- it's a money saving thing, I disapprove of the concept but cheer the people who get the jobs. Also (and this is my personal experience), the best historians are the ones who know how to handle literature: I cannot tell you how many historians are surprised that I, as a lit Ph.D., know how to handle history and apply it fruitfully to literature, and the ones who are not surprised are the best and producing (in my view) the most relevant work that's the best of both worlds. IMHO, that would be something I'd really push for you, since it would get you a taste of the lit stuff (not enough for Dr. K's arsey stuff to bite you though!), and it would have a practical benefit.

And with regards to (2): the Lesser Local College where I am adjunct faculty has a lot of MA adjuncts. LOTS. They pissed themselves to get a Ph.D. adjunct, true, but they hired the MAs without qualm, and they're getting really useful on the job training, and I rather wish I could've done some of those classes because it's content teaching. And truthfully, the LLC is only Lesser because I'm sitting pretty with a post doc at an R1 institution, with my BA from a Seven Sister's school, and the only way I avoid having "elitist bitch" tattooed on my forehead in terms of expectation and employment is because I didn't get my Ph.D. from, you know, Harvard, Yale, Princeton...the ones that are their own category. MA: goes further than you think, and it's not something that I thought of given my background. And in this sense, your background and mine are pretty similar. (In other words: you were indeed brainwashed, and it was liiiiiies!)

You're very welcome; I'm quite flattered to hear that it's all making sense, and I really do hope that it's useful in the long run.

Re: So here's my two cents...

[bedlamsbard]

I am still coming to grips with how much my classics program fucked me up! Which I gather might not be uncommon among undergraduate classics majors in the U.S., so...thanks for that, American classics people. I'm looking at one ancient history and one Renaissance studies program with a possible emphasis in classics, so I think just having the background is really useful. Because, of course, sometimes it feels like my one and only selling point is, "Hi, my background is everything and I'm interdisciplinary!" which may or may not be a good thing. (BA in Medieval and Early Modern Studies and Classics, minors in English lit and history, MA in Roman archaeology...I spent my entire undergraduate career overlapping classes and trying to combine subject matter. Doing just one thing right now is sort of strange, heh.)

I guess the thing I worry about with pausing to get an MA in lit is (1) paying for it (though I don't have undergraduate loans, so if I needed to take out loans for grad school I could) and (2) oh god my parents. (My dad, and I just got an e-mail from him that made me twitch, is pretty much "go directly to PhD, do not stop" and thinks I keep distracting myself by, my god, looking for options.)

I need to do some poking around to find out if (a) the universities I want to go to for grad/PhD will let me start their program while finishing another at the same time and (b) if Leicester will let me do that; I talked to my course director the other day and he seemed rather dubious on the subject, which is a bit alarming. Of course, I could decide not to do the dissertation and just get a certificate instead, but that's not an MA and since I came here for an MA... *hands* Life. Confusing.

It is interesting to do some poking around on the jobs listing of my hometown state uni and find that wow, they hire lecturers with just MAs and not PhDs, the shock! The surprise! (No, really. BRAINWASHED. Sadly they want you to already have teaching experience at the university level.) I guess in theory I could also try for a museum job, though I don't have any museum experience. Although an archaeology degree helps with that, since it means I (sort of) have artifact handling experience.