apparently today is complaining about literature day. feel free to join in.

[bedlamsbard]

I'm remembering why I generally don't read urban fantasy of the "main character is suddenly dragged into a fantasy world that exists just below the level of the real world" sort. (Key word being "suddenly dragged", urban fantasy where the MC has grown up with faerie or has previous experience with it is different.)

It's because I have yet to see an urban fantasy novel where the MC dragged into the fantasy world actually knows anything about mythology or folklore. And then, once in, ninety-nine percent of the time they never bother to hit up the library or even google that shit. Newsflash: YOU CAN GOOGLE ARTHURIAN MYTHOLOGY. In fact, if someone hands you a sword and tells you it's Excalibur or informs you that you've just become the next Merlin or even if you, in short order, meet various people with variations on the names "Arthur", "Guinevere", and "Morgan le Fay", I seriously advise that you sit down and spend an hour googling Arthurian mythology, because even if it's just a weird coincidence, you at least will learn things! Instead of being like, "Hey, a sword, cool, I'mma take a nap now."

Now, I grew up reading a lot of (mostly but not completely Western) folklore and mythology, and I have degrees in classical studies and medieval and early modern studies with emphases on literature that tends to center pretty heavily on myth and folklore, so I'm aware that my knowledge of such subjects is probably greater than the average layperson. But can't we get a hero or heroine who actually knows a thing or two? Like, in the context of Avalon or Faerie or whatever, "worm" probably doesn't mean "earthworm", it means "OH SHIT DRAGON SHIT RUN RUN RUN SHIT DRAGON." Or that "fairy" might mean "oh god run away because TRICKY MOTHERFUCKERS" instead of "aww, wings and sparkles and fairy dust." (On that note, there is a minor character in one of the Toby Daye novels who is a folklore professor who actually KNOWS SHIT. Like, some of it is wrong, but that's plot-important. It's almost sad how impressed I was that that actually happened in an urban fantasy novel.)

Sometimes urban fantasy does have a character who Knows Stuff! This is usually a secondary character and the main character almost never listens to him or her and the reader is left banging their head against the desk going, "Why the fuck can't you do your own research instead of having someone else do it for you when you need to know it anyway and all it consists of is GOOGLING [INSERT NOT TERRIBLY OBSCURE CELTIC/GREEK/NORSE MYTH HERE]?" There is, of course, a point where I google something because I'm not all that up on my Celtic mythology, then a few pages later one of the characters does and finds less information than I just did. I mean come on. I get that the character needs to be surprised, but can we have the character being surprised for a reason that doesn't rely on ignorance? What about a character doing All The Research and finding out that the records are wrong? What about that, huh? Then they don't look completely clueless! BUT WE WOULDN'T WANT THAT, WOULD WE?

Surely some of this stuff must be available purely through cultural osmosis, even if your main character isn't a folklore geek? Surely? Please? And why can't the MC be a folklore geek? Are geeks not sexy enough? Is the author assuming that their readership doesn't know anything about folklore either? Does the author assume that s/he is a freak for knowing stuff about folklore and thus to have an Every(wo)man for a protagonist they must not know anything about anything? I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

(This is in reaction to a specific novel, but I've seen it before in books, short stories, TV, movies...)

*

In related news, is it bad that the moment I see "the Romans told lies and/or propaganda!" like it's a big revelation in a review or recommendation of a novel (or even a nonfiction book or article), I instantly lose all desire to read it? Because it's at best a simplistic understanding of what Latin and Greek authors of the period were actually writing without an exploration of the whys and wherefores. I mean, maybe the actual novel (or nonfiction book or article) does it better! (I should hope so.) But now I have no interest in reading it.

(If this seems like an especially virulent reaction to something really specific, it's because one of the things I like to do as an academic is actually work out whether the archaeological evidence matches up or doesn't match up with the literary evidence. For the Romans. So yeah. "The Romans told lies (about non-Romans)" is a flat statement that makes me really, really angry because what it tells me is that the writer hasn't done any research beyond the superficial, if that.)

Comments

[deathsblood]

"the Romans told lies and/or propaganda!"
So basically like pretty all peoples ever? I struggle to see how that could ever be considered a revelation. I wouldn't say it's bad, everybody has different things which make them swiftly backspace, though they may seem minor to others.

[bedlamsbard]

Yeah. I'm not sure why I'm reacting to it quite so strongly right now, except I ran across it twice today in two completely different contexts. It might just be because it is what I do academically and it upsets me to see a pretty complicated issue reduced down to LIES LIES ALL DAMNABLE LIES.

[darklyndsea]

That's one of the reasons I don't like "ordinary person gets dragged into the supernatural" stories...along with the fact that that plot tends to have the added tropes of "only you can save the world" and "main character spends most of the book complaining/freaking out". At least in fanfiction you occasionally get some variety, like "main character researches the hell out of the subject, and the information is all wrong".

[bedlamsbard]

I swear that I've seen it done, if not well, at least not terribly, before, but I can't remember where. (I guess I should point out that the Bedlam's Bard series is actually one of those stories, but I can't remember how Eric Banyon is dragged into it originally, and in the later series he's familiar with all of it. So those books might count.)

Huh, actually, I guess Harry Potter sort of fits into that category, come to think of it, though I wouldn't classify HP as urban fantasy.

"Only you can save the world" stories, while occasionally done well, usually make me twitch around the edges.

[darklyndsea]

There's always a few exceptions.

Is there a term for what Harry Potter is? It's not high fantasy since it's technically here, but it's not urban fantasy either (except maybe technically?)...

I think that the only "only you can save the world" stories that I want are the ones where the world-saver is someone who would not be doing the heroics otherwise...but most of them use a character who wants to do the right thing anyway and are just out of their depth. Where are the stories about, like, assassins or serial killers or drug dealers who are only saving the world because they need it to still be around for them to survive?

Also what would be fun? Historical fantasy where the main character can't get any information on the supernatural beings (except straight from the horse's mouth) because they're from a different part of the world. "Yuki onna? Is that kind of like a kelpie?"

[bedlamsbard]

Man, I don't know. Just fantasy, I guess. YA or MG fantasy, depending, I suppose.

*ponder* I think (man, my main fandom not withstanding) that a lot of the time I'm not terribly keen on stories where only one person can save the world. Because "chosen one" stories don't usually work for me since they tend to be pretty contrived. (That said, I don't know if I've ever seen an original fic do this, but I always liked HP stories that were set after Voldemort had been defeated and Harry was dealing with the emotional toil that being ~the chosen one had dealt him. Because really, how do you go on after that?)

Hmm, you know, I saw a PotC fic like that a long, long time ago, but I can't remember author or title or even the archive it was in.

[darklyndsea]

I get what you're saying. Sometimes contrived works for me though, or at least I don't care. All fiction is at least a little bit contrived, isn't it?

I do like stories about characters after the craziness is over and they're adjusting to normal life (the only original I can think of is RED, which isn't quite the same thing as we're talking about, but it's similar at least in my mind). It's hard to pull off in original fiction, I think, because of all the plot-necessary information about the past. And there's no exposure for it, so authors don't think about it as a plot they can do.

I don't really think of Narnia as having a Chosen One plot. Maybe it's just been too long since I read the books, but I remember the prophecy being vague enough that it could be about any daughters of Eve and sons of Adam (cue fic where they're not the first kids to get sucked into Narnia and try to defeat Jadis, the others just died before they succeeded, and their parents all have to deal with dead/missing/extremely traumatized children).

[heliopausa.livejournal.com]

"cue fic where they're not the first kids to get sucked into Narnia..."

Yes. The totally chilling story by cofax: 'The Cave in Deerfield'. http://archiveofourown.org/works/132380
And also in 'Carpetbaggers'. (http://archiveofourown.org/series/4249) Brrrr..

[darklyndsea]

Fannish hive mind <3

It's funny, I love not-so-benign Narnia, but my headcanon is that Aslan is Simba from the Lion King grown up, and I just can't see Simba in that light.

[bedlamsbard]

You know, back when I first got into this fandom, I plotted out a original fic that took place after a Narnia-like adventure, where the kids are back and (trying to) adjust, and it would slowly be revealed what had happened to them while they were gone. (So having my cake and eating it too, I suppose. *g*)

But yeah, it's interesting because there are certain kinds of plots or tropes that are reasonably common in fanfic, but are very rare or nonexistent in original fiction because they tend to be reaction-type plots.

*ponder* Maybe I just think of Narnia having a Chosen One(s) plot because that's the way I use the Pevensies + prophecy in the Warsverse, although I can see how it can be viewed otherwise. (I have the disadvantage of not seeing how other people use it because I haven't read any Narnia fic for about four years.)

[darklyndsea]

The older I get, the more I like for plots to be complex like that, rather than the basic plot of save the world/the city/your life (fanfiction is ruining me for other forms of fiction, I'm telling you). Also, the more I like domestic fic (Maybe domestic fic isn't the right word for it, because I actually include fics where their lives have a high amount of excitement in them, but it's not a crisis, it's just Tuesday, if that makes sense). Not sure if they're related.

I think that in addition to them being reaction plots, a lot of the plots take a certain amount of attachment to the characters from the beginning, because otherwise a lot of readers are going to go "well this is boring, nothing's happening."

I think Narnia was intended as a chosen ones plot, since the prophecy was played straight.

[bedlamsbard]

Heh, I'm with you as far as fanfiction ruining things for profic. (Okay, that was phrased poorly, but you know what I mean?) Although it's interesting to read profic written by fandom authors, because there are certain tropes and emotional notes (and on occasion plot types) that fandom authors tend to hit that authors who haven't come out of fandom don't.

[darklyndsea]

I totally know what you mean.

The only profic written by a fanfic author that I know of is the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik, which sadly fell short of my standards for stories taking place in the past. ETA: also 50 Shades of Grey, but that's so not my kind of thing.

[bedlamsbard]

Naomi Novik, Cassandra Clare, Holly Black (I think), Sarah Rees Brennan, Jaida Jones are the ones that I know off the top of my head. Some people take their fic down when they get published and a couple of them don't connect their pro and fannish names.

[pinesandmaples]

So you're going to write that story, ne?

[bedlamsbard]

What story? An urban fantasy story where the MC is actually a smart, proactive character who doesn't passively react to every freaky thing that comes along and actually makes some attempt at understanding the bizarre fantastical world running alongside our own that they've fallen into? I'm not sure -- urban fantasy isn't really my favorite genre; it has a tendency to be slightly problematic in terms of what mythology you're using where, and my experience with really good urban fantasy is that it needs to be really rooted in a strong physical location (like the best mystery, for that matter), which I'm not sure I could write just because I haven't lived anywhere but my hometown long enough to do. (Although on that note, when I was in high school, I really did want to write a -- for lack of a better term -- "rural" fantasy, because why should the cities get all the fun? And that was a fantasy story that revolved around the members of a high school marching band and modern-day reincarnations of Greek mythological heroes, if I remember correctly. Come to think of it, that might be kind of fun to go back to, now that I'm distanced enough from HS I think I could write it.)